brisingre's profile

Your character card is a in your hand. Text on cards is active in your hand. I don't think the rules are ambiguous about that one.

Conditionals on Botany cards are an example of text on cards overriding (or in this case adding onto) the basic rules. The rules say you can apply abilities on matching actions, the Botany card has an ability that says you can only use this sometimes, and that takes priority. The conditional ability says you can't apply the brown box if you don't have the matching plant, and that takes priority over the rules saying you can. I don't think the rules are ambiguous about this either.

That's the intent, but it's not what the card says -- which is why it requires errata in the first place.

Bruno's confirmed it wasn't meant to be a one-card loop, but by confirming that it wasn't intentional and would require errata to the card to fix he also confirmed that, rules-as-written, cards-as-printed, it technically works just like OP wanted it to.

Knowing that it wasn't intentional you could house-rule against it and that'd be good enough for you, and indeed for most people reading this thread probably. But Bruno thought it might be worth issuing errata to Anjika for, perhaps so the fix would reach a wider audience, perhaps so it could be considered "properly" fixed in the game itself, rather than just papered over with a suggestion from Bruno and a house rule, perhaps in anticipation of eventually printing another errata/upgrade pack... I can only speculate of course.

So, my suggestion was just to errata it to work technically under the rules as it was always intended to work (pick a different card than the one you discarded) with no other changes to the ability, rather than the more extreme hand-only nerf (which would also remove the somewhat-less-unfair Spike Trap loop, at the cost of also removing many 100% fair uses of the ability.)

Compared to the intent made clear in this thread, it wouldn't be a change at all. It'd just enshrine this comment in the errata list, rather than just being a ruling (and a relatively informal one) in a thread somewhere.

3 real changes and some more that are just typos is comparable to the upgrade pack they did for first edition to second edition. It was only a few cards, and many of them were very minor fixes.

When you finish a curse, the process looks like this:

By the discard pile I mean the discard pile, since that's how cards refer to it. But yes, the one associated with the action deck, not The Past.

002 shuffles cards from the discard pile, which have probably but not necessarily been in the action deck at some undefined point in their history, "back" into the action deck. 180 shuffles itself, which has definitely not been in the action deck this game, "back" into the action deck. That is worse and more confusing, no question. And to be clear, I 100% agree that 180 should not say "back." I am more or less fine with it on other shuffle effects, but I don't think it does anything.

Lets look at what "shuffle them back into the action deck" means on 002.

On 002, does "back" mean the cards being shuffled are coming from the action deck?
No. They're coming from the discard pile, obviously.

On 002, does "back" mean the cards being shuffled were in the action deck most recently before the discard pile?
No. Often they've been in hands and inventories, and if it did mean this, there would be no way to track it.

On 002, does "back" mean the cards being shuffled have been in the action deck at least once this game?
No. It's rare, but entirely possible a card went from the advanced skill pile to a hand to the discard without having yet touched the action deck.

On 002, does "shuffle them back into the action deck" mean anything different from "shuffle them into the action deck"?
No. "Back" is just a filler word, perhaps a gentle reminder of how cards cycle through the action deck ecosystem, or a way of reinforcing the idea of food as a healing effect. It has no rules significance here.

Are there any cards where "back" actually matters to the rules meaning of the card, rather than just being a quirk in the way shuffle effects are templated?
Arguably 180, as seen in this thread. I know of no others.

Thus, my theory: "back" on 180 was just them using their standard shuffle template, without realizing that it would be confusing in this instance. I don't think we should read too much into it, that's all.

How are other folks playing the Devourers "you can't move" rule? Card 480 if you want to reference an actual card.

I think all will agree that you can't with a Devourer on your space.

I think most will probably agree that you can resolve effects like dungeon entrances and Tribal Stool, that say to return the board and the past and then put a terrain card into play and each player places their figures on it. The Devourers cards say nothing about not being allowed to take actions or not being allowed to return the board or not being allowed to place your figure or anything like that, AND you return the board before placing your figures (so the Devourer is already gone), AND these effect don't even use the word move. So to me, it seems pretty cut-and-dried to me that you can use e.g. Tribal Stool to escape -- but I can easily imagine someone interpreting the "spirit" of the rule to be that you can't leave a tile with a Devourer on it whatsoever.

Whether Devourers block bridge movement is fairly ambiguous and extremely important. Devourers usually spawn on adjacent terrain cards and can be routed around or unloaded by saving before you get 'stuck' on them. The main way for them to spawn right on top you and trap you immediately is if their fog tries to spawn them on an event instead of a terrain card, and almost all fogs that are replaced by events are replaced by bridges. So, the question of whether you can escape devourers by crossing bridges matters a lot -- if there's a devourer on your space and you didn't choose to move there to encounter it, 99% of the time there's a bridge option.

Bridges do use the word "move" to describe what you do with to your character figure, and they don't return the Devourer before they do it, so it's entirely possible they are blocked by Devourers. On the other hand, Move nearly always means and I think the rulebook might even explicitly define it as such.

And yet, they tell you shuffle cards that aren't coming from the action deck "back into the Action Deck" all the time. Every food you eat shuffles cards from the discard pile back into the action deck, Unexpected Properties shuffles cards from your hand back into the action deck, etc. Those cards are only going "back" in the sense that they've most likely been in the action deck at least one time before during this game.

This isn't even always literally true --you can buy an Advanced Skill to your hand, shuffle it away with Unexpected Properties, and shuffle it "back" into the action deck for the first time. The game has no way of checking whether the card has been in the action deck or not. It does not track or remember which cards have been in the action deck.)

The discard pile "feels closer" to the action deck than the adventure deck does, and in that sense the word "back" is less confusing on the other cards it appears than 180. But mechanically, in terms of things the game actually knows about and tracks, there is no difference. "Back" is equally inaccurate on basically every card but Think.

The conclusion I draw from this is that the word "back" basically doesn't mean anything, anywhere it appears. If we try to act like it's an important piece of rules text that indicates the cards in question are coming from the Action deck, it's "wrong" on nearly every card it appears.

Pretty crazy if anybody's arguing for 3 in a non-rhetorical sense. I hope nobody's actually playing that way. Why would the card say it makes a star if it doesn't?


3 also assumes that shuffling a card into the action deck mid-resolution would interrupt resolution of its text, which I'm pretty sure will cause other problems.


1, on the other hand, is a reasonable confusion. I'd be amazed if it was the intent but it's a pretty reasonable reading of the card.

Pretty sure you're now cursed IRL...

triggering when you move onto the terrain card they are on (or attached to) is not new to WGUMCD.



Face-down fog cards (and face-up ones that stick around) are permanent event cards. Anything with those big gold arrows is.

You perform on or attached to terrain cards as soon as you move onto the card. (I can only think of one other than this but they do exist.)

The first thing you do upon moving the barge to a new terrain card is flip the fog attached to it. So at any given time, there will be one terrain card revealed beyond the one your barge is on, attached to an unflipped fog 2 spaces away.

They replaced all the cards in the black box. That is, all the cards with ID numbers starting with A. If you have a brand new black box and a brand new set of replacement cards, you can leave the black box set in shrink.

If your black box was not in shrink I would remind you to double-check that it isn't expanded -- I forgot I had bought the BGG promos and almost left them behind when I swapped in the replacement cards.

That interpretation is very problematic.

1. Many other cards would require errata -- as mentioned in this thread, that would mean that Forewarned is Forearmed and anything else that can be used during or after the results step of an action would have to specify that it only works from your hand and not from anywhere.

2. If you interpret "card text overrides the rules" to mean "all card text is live all the time in any zone", what's stopping you taking actions on cards in the discard pile? Cards in the past? Banished cards? The rules don't really specify that cards are inactive in those zones, at least, they don't forbid each one specifically as you are looking for...

3. If it reshuffles itself as soon as it is revealed, and you reveal cards one at a time, which I'm 99% sure you do, isn't 180 just infinite cards if it's the only card in the deck? Seems pretty gamebreaking...

I think, in general, card text should be considered not live by default. The rulebook doesn't talk about which zones cards are nonfunctional, it talks about which zones they work. It makes quite clear that you resolve card text when you take a numbered card, it makes clear that text on permanent events attached to your terrain card is live, it makes clear that text on Satchel and Journal cards is live in the S&J zone and that cards in your hands are live in those zones and that items are live in your inventory if the durability has been spent. It isn't spelled out as a list of live zones or anything but it's made quite clear by the rest of the rules that the live zones are live. The dead zones are mostly dead by omission.

Alternatively:

If the intention were for the reshuffle to be in effect, why is it not a part of the second ability? It's the obvious thing to do, you can put the shuffle after the effect like any other card that shuffles itself away and reduce the ambiguity that exists now with the shuffle happening before the stars are actually counted, it would be 100% non-ambiguous that the two abilities both fire at the same time. Depending on the wording you end up with the card might even be more concise, and if not there's plenty of space. So, why have 2 very distinctly separate abilities with explicitly different timings if they actually both trigger at the same time? The obvious answer, I think, is because the intent is for them to have 2 different timings.

One ability says it triggers when revealed during an action and the other does not because one ability triggers when revealed during an action and the other does not.


Now, I'm an advocate for more formal rules all around, and the fact that this card creates so much confusion is evidence that it should be worded more explicitly as well. I'm not trying to say it's great and perfect the way it is. But I don't think it's truly ambiguous to the point that it needs errata to function -- an explicit timing on the first ability, rather than the default timing, would make it a lot clearer, but I'm pretty confident that the rules give you interpretation 4 for the default timing.

I agree 100% with Unisus on how the card works but I disagree on a small technical point as to why it works this way.

I don't think "when this gets revealed" is a permanent game-overlaying trigger that exists outside of the card like that. 7C doesn't really do those, any ability that exists for more than a split second is represented by a face-up card in the game somewhere.


It's simpler than that.

Card text ordinarily works when you take a card from the Adventure deck by number, but does not ordinarily work when you reveal a card from the action deck during an action. Because the first ability does not define its timing, it behaves in this "ordinary" way, and triggers only once, when you first take 180 by number.

Abilities that define their timing work when they say they work, even if the rules otherwise say they wouldn't. The rulebook boils this down to "text on cards takes priority over the rulebook" but one major practical implication of that is that the timing restrictions, the parts of a card that say when the rest of the card works, are always "live". Because the second ability defines its timing, you don't have to worry about what the rules have to say beyond that, really -- the rules for this ability are on the card, not in the rulebook.

There was another thread on this not too long ago with some interesting discussion:

https://the7thcontinent.seriouspoulp.com/en/forum/topic/4084/card-180-s-game-breaking-translation-lack-of-timing-error



I play with interpretation 4.


My thoughts on this:

The only change I think 180 needs to wording is to remove "back" from the first ability, and then only because it creates so much confusion, not because it actually changes how the card works. Most likely "back" slipped in because this is one of only a very small number of effects that shuffle a card into the action deck when it didn't come from the action deck vaguely recently -- they use "back" on effects that shuffle from the discard pile, from character's hands, from cards that have just been drawn in an action, from special draws like Think... Just about the only place they don't use "back" is when buying advanced skills -- which strongly implies that it shouldn't be used here either, since this falls into the category of "effects that introduce new cards to the action deck ecosystem from outside" rather than "effects that move cards to the action deck from other parts of the action deck ecosystem." I suspect it was used here just because it is the most common template.

"Back" doesn't actually do anything on the cards it appears on, it's actually totally unnecessary to have it at all, but other than this they've mostly done a good job of removing it from places where it would cause confusion.




180 has 2 abilities.

The first one, which shuffles it away, uses default timing.

The second, which provides a and the option to banish 180 for a sure success, explicitly defines when it should trigger.

So there are really 3 important pieces of rules text here -- The first ability, the timing condition for the second ability, and the second ability proper.



When you draw it from the adventure deck by taking a 180, you read and resolve the text in order. Ability 1 triggers, because that's what abilities without timing clauses do when you draw their cards from the adventure deck. Then Ability 2's timing condition is seen and resolved, and because the timing condition hasn't been met, the rest of the ability doesn't happen.

When you draw a card from the action deck, you do not ordinarily resolve any of its text. But 180 is special. Because the timing clause on 180 explicitly says it triggers now, it does. So, when you draw 180 from the action deck, Ability 1 does not trigger, but Ability 2 does.

(If you're bothered by the idea that card text can make itself "live" in a context where it ordinarily would not be, that's fair enough. After all, if it isn't "live" in the first place, you shouldn't resolve even the parts of the ability that bring the rest to life, right? A better formal way to think of this is that timing clauses are always live, even in circumstances where card text normally isn't.)


TL;DR:

They use "back" for cards going into the action deck from other zones all the time, but it is definitely a poor choice of words.
Ability 1 uses normal timing rules for an Adventure card, it triggers when you take it by number but not when it is revealed from the action deck.
Ability 2 happens when it says it happens, because it says so.

I don't have a game with completed flying roots quest in front of me anymore.

Could you post the numbers of the cards involved?

The collectors edition is currently the only edition. You're fine.

Classic edition will be a new print run, probably sometime in late 2019 or early 2020.

The fixed ones.

Flavor rules say definitely yes.

A formal reading of the cards says no -- Tornado definitely wants there to be a character on it's card in order to give resources.

I agree, it should be mentioned explicitly. One of only a few things I feel it should have that it doesn't, because you're right, they're pretty good.