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I guess worst-case, if we are stuck going the third party route, and they don't match, it won't kill me to just replace the sleeves I already have...
I think that "if you can use a botany card" simply means "If there is a plant on your terrain that is also shown on any botany card you have".
I'm pretty sure you're right. I think the stricter one causes bigger problems than I first thought.
Doesn't that make it pretty much impossible to use the brown box abilities on botany cards with it?
If I have the Fragonia card that gives a hunt success, that card would only allow me to use Keelan's ability during hunt checks on Fragonia spaces. But the only other effect that I can use during hunts (I think) is that Vampolina effect -- swapping to a botany card that helps with different kinds of checks, or provides a resource, or is an action won't help me.
Likewise, in order to usefully use that card in place of another botany card, I would need another botany card that could be used during hunt checks. A hunt discount when I could take an action, or a hunt discount when I could use a resource, or a hunt discount during some other kind of check won't help me.
So there'd actually be no way to use it with Brown Box abilities unless you happened to have 2 that can be used on the same kind of check from different plants. There might be one or two such pairs? I'm not sure.
That's my gut feeling as well but I can't think of any for the handful of free-timing abilities I know.
I'm correct about my basic premise, right?
There's three basic kinds of ability, all of which can be activated on cards in your hand, inventory, sachel & journal, terrain card, and attached events.
- White Box Actions can't ever be initiated in the middle of another White Box Action.
- Brown Box Abilities can be activated during a matching White Box Action.
- Any ability not in a box has no inherent timing restrictions. Abilities with printed timing restrictions, like Forewarned is Forearmed, use that restriction. Abilities with no printed timing restrictions whatsoever, like
can be used literally whenever you want.
the Vampolina card that lets you shuffle away Aggressiveness cards from your hand
Posted - Edited
Another similar question pertaining to Keelan's ability:
It seems self-evident that you can use it mid-check to use an ability that could normally be used mid-check, like
It seems equally self-evident that you cannot use it mid-check to use an action ability like
the Vampolina ability that shuffles aggressiveness cards from your hand into the deck.
the Fortiflore ability that makes a fire.
Assuming that's correct, it doesn't have a timing restriction of it's own, but it inherits the timing restriction of the card you wish to use. Does it also inherit the timing restriction of the botany card you're using to satisfy the "If you could use a botany card" requirement? That is, if I'm in a space with a Fortiflore and my only fortiflore card is
, and I've just drawn the cards for a check and want to use
the Fortiflore ability that makes a fire.
can I do that? Or is it the case that, because I couldn't use my Fortiflore card right now (can't take actions during other actions), I don't fulfill the "If you could use a botany card" requirement during a check?
the Vampolina ability that shuffles aggressiveness cards from your hand into the deck to make room in my hand
Yah, I could see how that note doesn't make it totally clear. Definitely supposed to read all the text you're shown though.
Read them. If a consequence is supposed to be a surprise it'll just tell you to draw a numbered card and the actual consequence will be on that card. (There's a note on Page 14 about this.)
A response in my BGG thread pointed out that trading item stacks to another character is in a similar situation -- it isn't an action, and doesn't specify when the ability can be used. So, potentially, it could be done during action resolution.
He and I agree that the answer is most likely no, but: can you trade items during the resolution of a check?
It would have very limited use if you can, because in general anybody who could trade a relevant item into a check could just get involved in the check at the beginning. (It is only useful to trade items at the very beginning of the check, because after the item step you won't be able to use them. You could use it to sneak items from non-involved characters into red-bordered checks, that's about it.)
Frankenstein's character ability doesn't specify when it can be used to recover one of his character-specific skills. It's formatted exactly like the 'saving throw' abilities, all of which can be used during checks, so it's very plausible to me that you could use it during a check.
If so, that means you can get back Obey! (the successes one, not the discount one) from the discard pile exactly when you need it to pass a check. That's pretty powerful, and he already has an increased hand size (presumably) to make room for all the character-specific skills he has to carry, so it feels like that might not be intended.
Are you supposed to be able to use that ability during a check?
Vaguely related question: If (for example) Lovecraft uses the last durability on his Serenity stack during a check, those cards aren't actually discarded until the end of the check. That means he can still discard a Serenity card from that stack to turn curses into successes for that check, right?
Another vaguely related sub-question: Can you use a character ability more than one time per check? For example, can the doctor discard 4 stamina cards for 2 stars? More importantly, can Lovecraft discard 3 serenity cards after drawing 2 curses for 6 successes? If it's once per ability per check, how does that work with Ferdinand's ability that restarts the check? If he has more stealth cards to discard can he keep trying again, considering it's technically a new check each time?
I only bought the bare minimum number of sleeves, but now I'm thinking I'd like to sleeve the fog decks, and I've already broken a couple and I know someday I'm going to want some spares...
Is there anywhere to get more, maybe add them on to my wave 2 shipment somehow? There's 3rd party sleeves that fit the cards just fine, but then my sleeves wouldn't match...
I think you're probably right about that, which would also provide a 'reason' why discarded cards count for Blue Fish, if anybody was looking for one: any other Blue Fish cards have already been returned by the time Blue Fish checked if they were revealed, so if they needed to "still be revealed" Blue Fish's ability would do nothing.
Posted - Edited
I asked the author (Bruno):
Thanks! Much appreciated.
Very surprised by the SP answer. It makes the bloody state useless in those cases. Very not their habit to be mercyfull with the player
With or without this rule Bloody has about the same impact. If you draw only 1 hunt result, and it isn't a predator, you lose it. If you draw only 2 hunt results, and either is a predator, you're going to have to fight a predator. If you draw 3 or more, you can discard one and still have a choice of 2, so unless you draw a bunch of predators at once it usually just lets you discard Empty Handed and other low-quality non-predator results from the results deck.
Basically, it doesn't make all your hunt attempts uniformly worse. It ruins your cheap/easy/unprepared hunting options so badly you're basically forced to expend resources to get large numbers of successes, but it doesn't continue to punish you once you do. This is mostly consistent with that, the blue fish bonus mostly happens when you're drawing a lot of fishing results.
It is pretty rare to see a ruling come down on the side of making the game easier though.
Posted - Edited
I've heard that flavor argument already. It makes sense, but as is the way of flavor arguments, an equally good one can be made going the other direction. That's why I'm not looking for any more flavor arguments -- everybody has their own opinion about flavor, only an argument based on game rules or a clarification from SP will put this (or any!) question properly to rest.
(In this case, a flavor counter-argument could be: It doesn't discard the other Blue Fish. So, it isn't like each Blue Fish represents a single fish that you caught and if there are two you can catch two. Rather, any day when you see two or more Blue Fish in your fishing check results is a day when Blue Fish are extremely plentiful. Perhaps they've come to the shallows to spawn or something. Anyway, they're everywhere. If you fish for them you can catch twice as many as you normally would and still let half of them or more go back to the deck. In that case, my blood in the water spooking a few individual Blue Fish doesn't really matter -- it's still a Plentiful Blue Fish day, I was going to let a bunch of Blue Fish get away no matter what, who cares if some of them get spooked?)
[Incidentally, if it did make you discard both Blue Fish, there would be no question. Obviously you can't discard a fish that's already been discarded. But I don't see any obvious reason why you wouldn't be able to count one. Other things that remove revealed cards from results are explicit about things like their stars not counting for successes, which suggests that, absent that rule telling you not to, you count things on revealed cards as they're revealed regardless of what might happen to them next...]
A related question that came up during the conversation:
Do you resolve all of a consequence box before moving on to cards it draws, or do you resolve them as soon as you draw it/choose them as a hunt result, and then go back and resolve the rest of the text box that sent you there?
This came up on BGG and lots of people had opinions about it but nobody could cite a specific rule, so I thought it might be worth posting here in hopes of getting an official clarification. This is a fairly minor, fairly technical question without much actual affect on the game, but I think it's worth doing right and playing as intended.
The 200 card Blue Fish says:
"If you have revealed at least 1 other "Blue fish" card, you have found a shoal of fish - take 2 additional 002 cards."
The question is whether, if you're bloody and reveal exactly 2 Blue Fish, discard one to Bloody, and keep the other as your Fishing result, do you draw the extra 2 blue cards?
To me it seems like you do, you still revealed it even if you discarded it, but the consensus seems to be going the other way, that you no longer "have" the other revealed fish.
As I said it doesn't make a huge difference one way or another, but I'd like to know.