Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Errors on the game27 posts
Posted
The first paragraph is definitely worded (and possibly placed) poorly. You can't shuffle a card back into a deck it never came from.


And yet, they tell you shuffle cards that aren't coming from the action deck "back into the Action Deck" all the time. Every food you eat shuffles cards from the discard pile back into the action deck, Unexpected Properties shuffles cards from your hand back into the action deck, etc. Those cards are only going "back" in the sense that they've most likely been in the action deck at least one time before during this game.

This isn't even always literally true --you can buy an Advanced Skill to your hand, shuffle it away with Unexpected Properties, and shuffle it "back" into the action deck for the first time. The game has no way of checking whether the card has been in the action deck or not. It does not track or remember which cards have been in the action deck.)

The discard pile "feels closer" to the action deck than the adventure deck does, and in that sense the word "back" is less confusing on the other cards it appears than 180. But mechanically, in terms of things the game actually knows about and tracks, there is no difference. "Back" is equally inaccurate on basically every card but Think.

The conclusion I draw from this is that the word "back" basically doesn't mean anything, anywhere it appears. If we try to act like it's an important piece of rules text that indicates the cards in question are coming from the Action deck, it's "wrong" on nearly every card it appears.
Posted
By "the discard pile", i assume you mean the "action deck discard pile". It is intimately associated with the action deck, and nearly all cards in it came from the action deck, and thus in that context, "shuffled back" has a clear meaning - this is a card that came from the action deck and should be shuffled back into it. Even when you buy Advanced skills into your hand, you are adding them to the deck.

when you first draw card 180, you haven't seen the face, so you don'tknow ot is intended to be part of the action deck - it is merely an adventure card with rules text. In that context, "shuffle back into the action deck" is confusing.


That also doesn't address what happens when the card is drawn from the Action Deck - do you shuffle it back then?
If so, the paragraphs are necessarily out of order, as if you shuffle it back, the 2nd paragraph isn't in play.
If not, the first paragraph needs some significant changes.
Posted - Edited
By the discard pile I mean the discard pile, since that's how cards refer to it. But yes, the one associated with the action deck, not The Past.

002 shuffles cards from the discard pile, which have probably but not necessarily been in the action deck at some undefined point in their history, "back" into the action deck. 180 shuffles itself, which has definitely not been in the action deck this game, "back" into the action deck. That is worse and more confusing, no question. And to be clear, I 100% agree that 180 should not say "back." I am more or less fine with it on other shuffle effects, but I don't think it does anything.

Lets look at what "shuffle them back into the action deck" means on 002.

On 002, does "back" mean the cards being shuffled are coming from the action deck?
No. They're coming from the discard pile, obviously.

On 002, does "back" mean the cards being shuffled were in the action deck most recently before the discard pile?
No. Often they've been in hands and inventories, and if it did mean this, there would be no way to track it.

On 002, does "back" mean the cards being shuffled have been in the action deck at least once this game?
No. It's rare, but entirely possible a card went from the advanced skill pile to a hand to the discard without having yet touched the action deck.

On 002, does "shuffle them back into the action deck" mean anything different from "shuffle them into the action deck"?
No. "Back" is just a filler word, perhaps a gentle reminder of how cards cycle through the action deck ecosystem, or a way of reinforcing the idea of food as a healing effect. It has no rules significance here.

Are there any cards where "back" actually matters to the rules meaning of the card, rather than just being a quirk in the way shuffle effects are templated?
Arguably 180, as seen in this thread. I know of no others.

Thus, my theory: "back" on 180 was just them using their standard shuffle template, without realizing that it would be confusing in this instance. I don't think we should read too much into it, that's all.
Posted
abredon wrote:

And as for card 180, during discussion on BGG, it turned out that players were interpreting it three different ways, and each group was sure their interpretation was correct according to the rules.


This sentence is misleading. I just found the thread, and there are no "groups" which interpret the sentence in three different ways, there is one guy dissecting the rule and figuring out three feasible ways of interpreting it, while arguing that the second one (gives a star, goes back to the discard) is the most logical one. A vast majority agreed, and almost noone argued for the other two wonky interpretations.
Posted
abredon wrote:

Nowhere in the rules, errata, or FAQ does it state that card text is not processed during the Results step of an action. since there is no rule against it, by default it is processed.


This, sir, is just your simple and plain assumption.

Rules say you line up the stars from cards you reveal during the result step of an action and then you can use cards from your hand, items, effects from permanent events and/or quest items to increase your successes.

Rules never say you can use the text on the skill cards you have revealed in this step. That text is meant to be used when you actually have that skill. When you draw cards as the cost to take an action, they’re only there for the success chance of the action. Then, if you choose to take one in your hand, that card becomes a skill card you can use accordingly to its text.

Don’t just assume what is unwritten. Rules are meant to say what you can do and what they don’t specifically say, you cannot do. Period.
Posted
Tootzo wrote:
abredon wrote:

Nowhere in the rules, errata, or FAQ does it state that card text is not processed during the Results step of an action. since there is no rule against it, by default it is processed.


This, sir, is just your simple and plain assumption.

Rules say you line up the stars from cards you reveal during the result step of an action and then you can use cards from your hand, items, effects from permanent events and/or quest items to increase your successes.

Rules never say you can use the text on the skill cards you have revealed in this step. That text is meant to be used when you actually have that skill. When you draw cards as the cost to take an action, they’re only there for the success chance of the action. Then, if you choose to take one in your hand, that card becomes a skill card you can use accordingly to its text.

Don’t just assume what is unwritten. Rules are meant to say what you can do and what they don’t specifically say, you cannot do. Period.



Tootzo wrote:
abredon wrote:

Nowhere in the rules, errata, or FAQ does it state that card text is not processed during the Results step of an action. since there is no rule against it, by default it is processed.


This, sir, is just your simple and plain assumption.

Rules say you line up the stars from cards you reveal during the result step of an action and then you can use cards from your hand, items, effects from permanent events and/or quest items to increase your successes.

Rules never say you can use the text on the skill cards you have revealed in this step. That text is meant to be used when you actually have that skill. When you draw cards as the cost to take an action, they’re only there for the success chance of the action. Then, if you choose to take one in your hand, that card becomes a skill card you can use accordingly to its text.

Don’t just assume what is unwritten. Rules are meant to say what you can do and what they don’t specifically say, you cannot do. Period.



Great, so character abilities don't exist because nothing in the rules says that area of the card does anything.
And the conditionals on botany cards aren't applicable because the only thing the rules tell us to apply is the consequences of an action and the area within a brown modifier box.

That interpretation causes more problems than it solves!
Posted
Your character card is a :icon_hand_orange: in your hand. Text on :icon_hand_orange: cards is active in your hand. I don't think the rules are ambiguous about that one.

Conditionals on Botany cards are an example of text on cards overriding (or in this case adding onto) the basic rules. The rules say you can apply :action_condition: abilities on matching :action_empty: actions, the Botany card has an ability that says you can only use this :action_condition: sometimes, and that takes priority. The conditional ability says you can't apply the brown box if you don't have the matching plant, and that takes priority over the rules saying you can. I don't think the rules are ambiguous about this either.
Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Errors on the game27 posts