Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Rules and Operating Points38 messages
Posté - Edité
Ok, I'll try to explain that card in easier words, but I sincerely think this is one of the most straightforward cards and that's why an official clarification hasn't been made to this date, so I'm not totally sure you're not purposely playing troll here.

Anyway, here's how card 180 works.
The card has basically two backs and no fronts. When you first pick it from the Adventure Deck, you read the flavor text on the green back and then you're told to flip it and shuffle it into the Action Deck. Flipping the card reveals the blue back, so that it can be added to the Action Deck without spoiling which card is it in the deck. From this point on, this card becomes an Action Deck Card and it no longer is an Adventure Card.

By now we should all agree on the fact that during the Result step of an action, when you reveal the cards you have drawn from the Action Deck to take said action, the text on those cards has no effect unless it is preceded by "When you reveal this card in the Result step of an action..." text. So, after you've shuffled it into the Action deck and you've drawn it as part of the Cost step, when you finally reveal it, you ignore everything that's written on that card save for what it says after the "When you reveal this..." part.
So, when you reveal it in the Result step of an action you can add one star to your successes and then, in the Skill step, it gets discarded in the Discard Pile like any other action card you don't choose to keep in your hand (it has neither the blue nor the green hand symbol in the top-left corner, so it's neither a skill nor a bonus card and you can't choose to keep it); otherwise you may choose to banish it in the Result step to automatically succeed the action.

Keep in mind that if you're drawing cards from the discard pile because your action deck is empty, the game over condition (you reveal a curse card) takes precedence over the fact that you could banish this card to succeed the action (if you have drawn it among the others from the discard pile, that is).


As a side note, the game is pretty clear about what is a skill card. Skill cards have the blue hand icon in the top-left corner. The Action deck is made up of "generic" Action deck cards, which may be skill cards, curse cards, Flying Roots cards
and card 180 which is an Adventure card as long as it sits in the Adventure deck and you pick it. The moment you flip it to its blue back, it becomes a generic Action Deck card, with no specific subtype, but still an Action Deck card and you treat it like any other generic action deck card: you can't add it to your hand in the Skill step of an action and you resolve the "When you reveal it in the Result step" part when the time comes.


I hope you can now see it clearly and the explanation satisfies you.
Posté
Yeah, it is pretty clear, he just likes to troll
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Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :


By now we should all agree on the fact that during the Result step of an action, when you reveal the cards you have drawn from the Action Deck to take said action, the text on those cards has no effect unless it is preceded by "When you reveal this card in the Result step of an action..." text. So, after you've shuffled it into the Action deck and you've drawn it as part of the Cost step, when you finally reveal it, you ignore everything that's written on that card save for what it says after the "When you reveal this..." part.


Nope, we don't agree. I don't know if the intent if the designers is:
1. Only apply text that says "when revealed..."
2. Only apply text that says "when revealed during the results step..."
3. SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY, since there is NO RULES TEXT THAT SUPPORTS ANY INTERPRETATION AT ALL.

The rules themselves seem to support the unusual interpretation that all rules text on action cards is active during the results step. There is a vague implication this might not be the case, but no rule.

The rules ALSO imply that only the areas listed as "card effect" have an effect. (Support: they list the "card effect" area on a large number of card types.)

They ALSO imply that text outside an action box has no effect. (Support: that is the only place you are told to apply card effects.)

This is unacceptable in situations where there are multiple reasonable interpretations of a card or set of cards.

When a player has a question about how to interpret one of those cards, we CANNOT provide a definitive answer, just an opinion. This is a problem if they ask for the reference in the rules/FAQ/errata/designer ruling on a forum.

This is the situation I AM IN!!!!! A player asked for the evidence of the interpretation. I went to look for said evidence, and found there was a LACK OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY INTERPRETATION.

THAT IS WHY I CREATED THE 2 POSTS.

And THAT IS WHY USER OPINION DOESN'T HELP. There are players who want an official answer.

Rules need to be clear (or clarified by an official representative) so we don't have users interpreting vague rules in contradictory ways.
Posté
Ok. I'm out.
You just want to get attention and are trolling about things in the game that only you need clarification about, when they are crystal clear.

Please get help. This isn't the right place anyway.
Posté
MetalGod a écrit :
The rules state pretty clearly when you can use cards , starting on page 11 of the rule book for action resolution , only the left side of the card is used when you draw cards for a result , you can use cards from your hand , inventory or journal during the cost step and/or the results step . card text is only active when it is in your hand/inventory or journal.
I can easily refute this on the basis of adventure card 180.
Tootzo a écrit :
The only action cards you “activate” their text when revealed during the result step are the four cards from the Flying Roots add-on
How do you come to this conclusion? And what about adventure card 180?
JackSpirio a écrit :
It you just do what the cards say, which makes it obvious when they are to be used.
IF it was obvious we wouldn't be discussing it. You're just trying to use rhetorics to avoid having to actually make a compelling argument to support your view.
Tootzo a écrit :
The flying roots cards specifically say “when you reveal this card”. Of course it works!!!
The problem is, if the rules stated, that the card text is to be ignored during the Result step of an action, then you could never find out if it says “when you reveal this card” or not.
Thankfully, the rules do _not_ say that the text is ignored.
Tootzo a écrit :
There are no official clarifications because there’s really no need. This game has basically one rule and yet you are trying all your best to freely interpret it to make it unclear or not work, where it simply works wonderfully if you just stick to what the rulebook and the cards say without letting your imagination loose. There’s nothing to imagine: it’s all just reading.
To the contrary, it's you who is making stuff up. I'm just applying the rules that are actually there.
JackSpirio a écrit :
Card text when revealed during the result text isn’t active, unless it tells you so, which both of the cards you mention do.
If you thought about that for a second you would realize that you've just created a paradoxon. If I have to read the text in order to find out if the text is to be read, then the text must always be read. Yo can't have it both ways. Either, the text is considered to be blank during the Result step of an action or not.
If the rules were amended to say that the text is to be ignored, then they'd have to introduce a new type of icon to be placed in the left border to signify that the card is supposed to be an exception with a text that isn't ignored.
It makes no sense to put an exception where it will always be ignored. That simply cannot work.
Posté
Tell you what: play as you like.
Apparently many people here can't really see what the most reasonable way of using the cards is. At this point, if you have all these doubts, I can't see how an "official clarification" could help. It's still one way of interpreting the rules.

If you are all so determined to shroud away any explanation that doesn't convince you, you should even debate an "official" one.

It's likely you would argue a rewording or complete rules overhaul is needed should you eventually get an official clarification.

As I said, I think it's not; the card is self-explanatory as it is, because one single "interpretation" is the simplest and most logic and it works without bending a single rule. If you don't see it, play the game as you would seem more fit. It really doesn't hurt anyone (save for your logic processes)
Posté
If you thought about that for a second you would realize that you've just created a paradoxon. If I have to read the text in order to find out if the text is to be read, then the text must always be read. Yo can't have it both ways. Either, the text is considered to be blank during the Result step of an action or not.
If the rules were amended to say that the text is to be ignored, then they'd have to introduce a new type of icon to be placed in the left border to signify that the card is supposed to be an exception with a text that isn't ignored.
It makes no sense to put an exception where it will always be ignored. That simply cannot work.
no it is not.
You are overcomplicating it.
It definitely can work as it uses a key phrase which tells you to do something when drawn under these circumstances.
The text is always there, it isn’t just gone because it can be ignored. This wouldn’t work as the cards are not changeable.
So you can always find this key phrase and do what it says, there is no problem with that.
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Posté
Tootzo a écrit :
Apparently many people here can't really see what the most reasonable way of using the cards is. At this point, if you have all these doubts, I can't see how an "official clarification" could help. It's still one way of interpreting the rules.
Obviously you don't know me.
There's a clear difference between 'rules as written' and 'rules as intended' (RAW vs. RAI). An official clarification would let us know what the intent was. That's sufficient to play the card the way it's meant to be.
Once the intent is clear, an effort could be made to reword the card or adjust the rules make sure the RAW matches the RAI.
Tootzo a écrit :
As I said, I think it's not; the card is self-explanatory as it is, because one single "interpretation" is the simplest and most logic and it works without bending a single rule. If you don't see it, play the game as you would seem more fit. It really doesn't hurt anyone (save for your logic processes)
My interpretation doesn't require any bending of rules, either. That's the meaning of 'ambiguous'. There's more than one interpretation possible and unless one of the game's designers intervene, there can be no consensus which one is correct. To you it is simpler and more logical to assume implied rules, to me it's simpler and more logical to only rely on the actual rules and card text.
So, yes, I'll definitely continue to play the card the way I believe to be the correct one.
Posté - Edité
And this vagueness is why I have proposed the following correction to the rules - it clarifies what appears to be the intent of the designers in reference to Card 180, the Flying Roots, and the normal action cards that can be discarded in the Results step for extra stars.
It also clarifies a number of other ambiguous situations - to wit:
The rules state that the back of cards have flavor text, but some cards have rules text. NOTE: the designers have noted that this is ambiguous.
The rules do not state that any rules text applies outside of the success/failure areas of an action and the box for action modifiers. They do indicate 'effect area' for certain cards, but there are cards with rules text outside the 'effect area', and card types without an 'effect area'.

The very fact that there are 2 conflicting interpretations is enough to indicate that the rules are vague
The fact that [I]both[/i] conflicting interpretations require violation of standard rules reading, and the 2 interpretations using standard rules reading make no sense, is even [I]more[/i] evidence that clarification is needed.
That the only players who are claiming it is not a problem are using a house rule and claim that that is the only obvious answer, even when another player presents a logical argument to the contrary... that is [I]actual proof[/i] that a clarification is [I]needed[/i].
If you can't reply with a rules reference to a logical argument about an interpretation, [I]the rules need clarification. PERIOD. END OF STORY[/i]. Players should always have some way in the Rules, errata, FAQ, and official designer rulings to KNOW how to interpret a card.
If 2 people have different opinions on how a card works, there [I]needs[/I] to be an official resolution. You can play with a house rule for the immediate purpose of continuing the game, but after the game, you [i]need[/I] to find out what was actually intended. When you go into the official documents and find that the rules actually contradict [I]both[/I] of your interpretations, there is a major problem. This is the case with Card 180 right now - there is no 'card text does not apply during the results step unless....' in the rules, which means the standard interpretations are 'no card text applies during the results step, period' or 'all card text applies during the results step, period' are the only interpretations allowed by the rules - thus needing clarification regardless of any other reason to need clarification.

The rules fix I propose is 2 paragraphs long and resolved many vague points in the rules, resolves the contradictions revealed by Card 180 and Flying Roots, and does not cause any obvious problems. It seems to be the interpretation that expresses the designer's intent best.

The fix I recommend is that the rules should include the following 2 paragraphs:
All card rules text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck.
During the Result Step of an action, only card rules text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is applicable.
Posté
The problem in your proposed fix is that it requires defining things like text applicability, game areas and timing, where the game is just as intuitive as it is now without the need of complicating it with technicalities.
The only timing rule is no nested actions: first conclude an action and then resolve temporary events you have revealed during that action.
There is only one rule on text applicability: do what you're told when you're told. Left stripe stars and sevens only apply when you reveal cards in the result step of an action (as per rulebook "easily forgotten rules" section. Skill card text is applied when you play the card from your hand in the cost or result step of an action (as the card tells you). If they depict an action, you can't use them in the middle of another action, as per the timing rule.

You don't need anything else and every card is easily understandable following these few little rules.
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
The problem in your proposed fix is that it requires defining things like text applicability, game areas and timing, where the game is just as intuitive as it is now without the need of complicating it with technicalities.
The only timing rule is no nested actions: first conclude an action and then resolve temporary events you have revealed during that action.
There is only one rule on text applicability: do what you're told when you're told. Left stripe stars and sevens only apply when you reveal cards in the result step of an action (as per rulebook "easily forgotten rules" section. Skill card text is applied when you play the card from your hand in the cost or result step of an action (as the card tells you). If they depict an action, you can't use them in the middle of another action, as per the timing rule.

You don't need anything else and every card is easily understandable following these few little rules.


And those "few little rules" fail on card 180.

It is not a skill card, so is the text on it active?
It says to turn it over and shuffle it back into the action deck, but if you do that the 2nd paragraph never takes effect.
If you treat it like you would a skill card, the 2nd paragraph never takes effect and it is a 0 star card.


So, there is at least one card where your rules don't apply.
My 2 paragraphs lay out explicitly when text is considered to be active so it fixes:
The acknowledged problem with rules text on the back of adventure cards.
Attempts to activate card text during the results step when not intended.
Failure to activate intended card text during the results step.

This minor clarification allows the game to be played as intended, using a restrictive interpretation of the rules. Unless you can state a situation where these rules would not provide the intended effect, they make it easier for all players to know how the rules are to be interpreted.

And as a plus, it is actually shorter than your "few little rules" and still works on card 180. It is clear in all situations and it doesn't require constantly thinking about "intent" (where opinions often differ).

Your solution would make sense if the designer were active in the forums and resolved the many questions of intent (although the designer weighed in with his intent on Anjika Patel's ability, that is not common). Since that is not the case, we need something more definitive than "read the card and try to figure out what the designer intended"
Posté
It works perfectly for card 180
If you would do what it says, namely following the if revealed during the consequence step and applying it.
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Posté - Edité
Approaching this from another direction:

Play areas are:
Character play area
Satchel & Journal
Map

Non-Play areas are:
Action Deck
Discard Deck
The boxes with adventure and exploration cards

There is strong evidence that:
card rules text on character, state, skill and bonus cards is active and may be used and card rules text on item cards is only active when the item has been activated for use. This covers every card in a character play area.
card rules text on cards in the Satchel and Journal play area is active.
Card rules text on temporary and permanent events is active - since map cards don't have rules text, this covers every card in the map play area.
card rules text on the back of adventure cards drawn from the box is active (several curses require banners in rules text to be applied, Card 180 requires this)
So: all play areas and cards drawn from the adventure deck have card rules text active (except for non-built or non-activated items, which are already covered by the rules)
Card rules text is to be applied in reading order, and not in the order a player prefers (the Flying Roots 'Strangest Encounter' cards could be discarded without effect if read out of order. there are other examples of bad effect followed by discard/banish this)

There is evidence that:
Some card rules text is not meant to be active when drawn from the Action deck during the Results step of an Action (card 180 would simply shuffle itself back in the deck if all text were active)
Some card rules text (that which specifically mentions being revealed during the Results step) is meant to be active during the Results step of an action (if not intended, then that text could simply have been removed). This active area starts with the qualifier and goes to the end of the card (the flying roots would not work right if the active area were 1 paragraph)

Summary:
Card rules text on cards in play areas (except unbuilt item cards and items not currently activated for use), is generally active.
Card rules text on cards revealed from the Action deck are not active unless the card specifically mentions it, and only from the mention to the end of the card.

If you have any other time or place in which card text is active or inactive, please mention it.
Posté
Was that so hard?
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JackSpirio a écrit :
Was that so hard?


I assume you now agree with the 2 paragraph rules errata text mentioned above and in the original post.
That errata text is required for the rules to match the designer's intent.

Said errata text in rough form:
Card rules text on cards in play areas (except unbuilt item cards and items not currently activated for use), is generally active.
Card rules text on cards revealed from the Action deck are not active unless the card specifically mentions it, and only from the mention to the end of the card.
Posté
You don’t need these errata as this is the only explanation that makes sense in the game.
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JackSpirio a écrit :
You don’t need these errata as this is the only explanation that makes sense in the game.

Repeating that over and over doesn't make it any more true.

What makes or doesn't make sense to you is completely irrelevant. There needs to be a general rule that everyone can follow in order to interpret the card correctly.

Otherwise why have any rules at all? Surely everyone can come up with an explanation that makes sense to them and play accordingly.
Posté
Yes, we need rules, but we have them and they are enough to solve this problem
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Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Rules and Operating Points38 messages