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abredon a écrit :
Common sense does. It’s clear how the card is intended to work. Becoming over obsessed on how the rules should be worded to be clear when you just need to use common sense just means we’re trying to break the game on purpose to demonstrate it can be broken.
People don’t need this when the card is intuitively clear.
People needs this only if they insist on requiring heavier rules to avoid people purposely interpreting card text and rules in a counterintuitive way just because a lighter ruling let them to.
Do you really need a rule that says you shouldn’t do something that makes a card or a mechanic in a game nonsensical or not working? Isn’t it obvious that any interpretation or usage of a rule/card/game element that screws things up in a way that makes them nonsensical is wrong?
Maybe you’re used to 40-pages long rulebooks and this game has a too loosely written yet really intuitive gameplay flow that your mind can’t come to terms with.
Just because another game has similar wording or mechanics doesn’t mean this one works in the same way.
Most of the doubts come from personal assumptions we developed through experience by playing several games and I understand those assumptions sometimes kick in so unconsciously that it’s hard to step away from them or even recognize we’re taking something for granted Just from our past experiences and not necessarily because this is how things work everywhere.
If you can step back from these assumptions and manage to just read the cards and rulebook text, applying just plain and simple logic would be enough to figure everything out with no confusion whatsoever.
The problem in your proposed fix is that it requires defining things like text applicability, game areas and timing, where the game is just as intuitive as it is now without the need of complicating it with technicalities.
The only timing rule is no nested actions: first conclude an action and then resolve temporary events you have revealed during that action.
There is only one rule on text applicability: do what you're told when you're told. Left stripe stars and sevens only apply when you reveal cards in the result step of an action (as per rulebook "easily forgotten rules" section. Skill card text is applied when you play the card from your hand in the cost or result step of an action (as the card tells you). If they depict an action, you can't use them in the middle of another action, as per the timing rule.
You don't need anything else and every card is easily understandable following these few little rules.
jhaelen a écrit :
Because it really isn't necessary, the card is pretty self-explanatory
1. you take it from the Adventure deck if you spot the 180 number on the terrain card
2. you flip it and add it to the action deck
3. when you draw it from the Action Deck as part of the cost to do an action and reveal it in the Result step, you can add 1 star to the result or you can banish this card and immediately succeed that action.
It's that simple.
I really can't understand why people is so stuck on this card to write loads and loads of mental ruminations about timing, active text and rules so detailed an complex that even a game like Magic The Gathering doesn't have them
Tell you what: play as you like.
Apparently many people here can't really see what the most reasonable way of using the cards is. At this point, if you have all these doubts, I can't see how an "official clarification" could help. It's still one way of interpreting the rules.
If you are all so determined to shroud away any explanation that doesn't convince you, you should even debate an "official" one.
It's likely you would argue a rewording or complete rules overhaul is needed should you eventually get an official clarification.
As I said, I think it's not; the card is self-explanatory as it is, because one single "interpretation" is the simplest and most logic and it works without bending a single rule. If you don't see it, play the game as you would seem more fit. It really doesn't hurt anyone (save for your logic processes)
The egg is basically a "dud" game card so, in order not to devoid you of one possible hunting target, it lets you draw another 150 card and either keep the egg or discard it (in case you don't want to delve into the Comfort Creatures mechanic). Then you choose 1 card among all the 150 cards you drew for the hunting action.
In other words, you either keep one of those 150 card as if you never drew the egg or you keep one of those 150 and the egg; but still, you keep only one of the 150 cards you drew with in the whole process.
Ok. I'm out.
You just want to get attention and are trolling about things in the game that only you need clarification about, when they are crystal clear.
Please get help. This isn't the right place anyway.
Posté - Edité
Ok, I'll try to explain that card in easier words, but I sincerely think this is one of the most straightforward cards and that's why an official clarification hasn't been made to this date, so I'm not totally sure you're not purposely playing troll here.
Anyway, here's how card 180 works.
The card has basically two backs and no fronts. When you first pick it from the Adventure Deck, you read the flavor text on the green back and then you're told to flip it and shuffle it into the Action Deck. Flipping the card reveals the blue back, so that it can be added to the Action Deck without spoiling which card is it in the deck. From this point on, this card becomes an Action Deck Card and it no longer is an Adventure Card.
By now we should all agree on the fact that during the Result step of an action, when you reveal the cards you have drawn from the Action Deck to take said action, the text on those cards has no effect unless it is preceded by "When you reveal this card in the Result step of an action..." text. So, after you've shuffled it into the Action deck and you've drawn it as part of the Cost step, when you finally reveal it, you ignore everything that's written on that card save for what it says after the "When you reveal this..." part.
So, when you reveal it in the Result step of an action you can add one star to your successes and then, in the Skill step, it gets discarded in the Discard Pile like any other action card you don't choose to keep in your hand (it has neither the blue nor the green hand symbol in the top-left corner, so it's neither a skill nor a bonus card and you can't choose to keep it); otherwise you may choose to banish it in the Result step to automatically succeed the action.
Keep in mind that if you're drawing cards from the discard pile because your action deck is empty, the game over condition (you reveal a curse card) takes precedence over the fact that you could banish this card to succeed the action (if you have drawn it among the others from the discard pile, that is).
As a side note, the game is pretty clear about what is a skill card. Skill cards have the blue hand icon in the top-left corner. The Action deck is made up of "generic" Action deck cards, which may be skill cards, curse cards, Flying Roots cards
and card 180 which is an Adventure card as long as it sits in the Adventure deck and you pick it. The moment you flip it to its blue back, it becomes a generic Action Deck card, with no specific subtype, but still an Action Deck card and you treat it like any other generic action deck card: you can't add it to your hand in the Skill step of an action and you resolve the "When you reveal it in the Result step" part when the time comes.
I hope you can now see it clearly and the explanation satisfies you.
I haven't encountered many weather figures yet, just two, but
there weren't rules that prevented moving away from the weather figures, just additional actions or modifiers when doing so.
The idea that each terrain tile covers a vast area coupled with the fact that you don't technically travel through tiles when moving may be the best explanation to why you don't confront the worms unless you start moving from their tile.
As for boarding the balloon, I didn't remember the exact wording on that card, but now I checked and yes,
it just removes everything from the board so it isn't you leaving the terrain card and the worm doesn't trigger.
Oh man. You’re giving all you got to screw things up!
I am talking about SKILL CARDS.
The flying roots cards specifically say “when you reveal this card”. Of course it works!!!
If you better understand it this way, I’ll say this: the whole card text is active the moment you reveal it, but on skill cards you can’t use the stars/sevens in the left stripe unless you are revealing them in the result step of an action and you can’t use the text in the right side unless you are playing them from your hand or they are items you have in your inventory AND chose to use in the Item step of the action.
There are no official clarifications because there’s really no need. This game has basically one rule and yet you are trying all your best to freely interpret it to make it unclear or not work, where it simply works wonderfully if you just stick to what the rulebook and the cards say without letting your imagination loose. There’s nothing to imagine: it’s all just reading.
I am puzzled. I really can’t understand if your playing dumb just to troll or you really don’t get it.
I meant “rulebook” in a broader way. If a card text say you can do something, you can do that thing.
My point was: rules in a game are meant to be taken literally. What is specifically written on a rulebook, a card, a game element, you can do. If something is not written anywhere, you don’t just infer you may still do that on a logical basis. You can’t do what the rules on the entirety of the game components don’t specifically say you can.
And by the way: page 12 of the rulebook
1. In the Result step of an action, the rules say: “Each player involved in the action may apply the effects of one or more cards from their hands (A), of one or more item cards in their inventory used in step 1 (B), of one or more permanent event cards attached to the terrain card their figure is standing on (C) and/or of one or more quest item cards (D), in order to obtain additional successes.”
Since using the skill card effect (right part) of cards drawn to resolve the action is neither A, B, C nor D, I really can’t see why you’re still arguing those skill cards’ text is “active” when they are revealed as part of the action resolution sequence. It is not. It becomes “usable” only when they are in your hand/inventory.
2. On the right column, the second “Important!” box from the top says: “Any STAR or LUCKY 7 icons in the left strip of Skill cards are only taken into account when these cards are revealed during this step, not when they are in a player’s hand or inventory.”
So, again, no: you can’t play cards from your hand during the Result step of an action to add the stars and 7s in their left strip.
I hope this will put an end to this overly long debate.
Now that I think about it: how does moving through a terrain containing a devourer work?
The worms forbid you to leave the terrain you are on, but if you are just passing through, do their ability trigger? Is any terrain card you move through when taking the move action considered as you are leaving it (save for the one you stop on, obviously)?
The stores were supposed to sell leftover copies from the Kickstarter campaign(s), after all the backers received replacement parts where applicable, so I don't think a restock will ever be possible. What's on the store is what's left of the whole production of this game.
You can only get the game from second hand market or waiting for the Classic Edition (which as I understand will only include the Black Box without the stretch goals from the KS)
I would add to the already closed discussion by pointing out that the rulebook does in fact instruct you to read the text on the numbered side of Adventure cards the moment you take them from the Adventure deck, so this reinforces the idea that you don't trigger the "shuffle into the Action Deck" part whenever you draw the card from the Action Deck, but only when you first take it from the Adventure deck.
abredon a écrit :
They don't need to state everything that is not. Rulebook just say what is, automatically excluding the opposite if not stated otherwise.
The LEFT part of an action card is only active when you reveal action cards during the Result step of an action. The RIGHT part is active the moment you take an action card into your hand. Period.
It's clear enough in the rules because, since they don't say otherwise, that's exactly what's stated there.
The stars on the left part of an action card are only explained in the Result step of the action resolution process; the skill text is only talked about when the rulebook says you can take actions printed on skill cards in your hand and can use effects (effects, NOT stars and 7s in the left side) from skill cards in your hand in the Result step of an action and those are precisely the only moments you can use those parts of an action card.
This implicitly means you can't use either of them outside these situations. All rulebooks work this way: you do what they explicitly say and you don't do what's not written.
Example: the rulebook says you can use the resources printed on the terrain card your figure is on and all attached event cards. It doesn't need to also tell you can't use the resource printed on adjacent terrains, but following your logic, you could just do that because the rules don't explicitly say you cannot. Someone might justify this thematically especially when they're on a 0 cost 0 success move terrain saying they don't need to spend a single energy "point" to move across the terrain, so they can get whatever resource is on all reachable terrain cards, because the rulebook doesn't say you can't.
I'm pretty sure you see the absurdity of all this.
You do what they say, you don't do what they don't. Period.
Posté - Edité
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the French text on the Devourers card is "you can't leave the terrain card where the rock worm figure is" (well, in French, obviously ).
This solves a lot of doubts on which actions the worms interfere with: every time your figure would leave the terrain where a worm is, you can’t take that action, you have to deal with the worm first. So exploring adjacent exploration cards: yes. Doing stuff on the terrain (that won’t make you leave the terrain card): yes. Doing stuff from items or cards in hand (that won’t make you leave the terrain you’re in): yes. Taking action on adjacent events that let you move away from your current terrain card (aka: bridges): no. Boarding the balloon and heading for the sky: no (you actually remove the terrain card and move onto another, so, you can’t). IIRC you can’t even save if a worm is on the same terrain as you. You could only “trick” it by saving from a different terrain, so that when the terrain where the worm is gets removed, the worm figurine is put away.
abredon a écrit :
This, sir, is just your simple and plain assumption.
Rules say you line up the stars from cards you reveal during the result step of an action and then you can use cards from your hand, items, effects from permanent events and/or quest items to increase your successes.
Rules never say you can use the text on the skill cards you have revealed in this step. That text is meant to be used when you actually have that skill. When you draw cards as the cost to take an action, they’re only there for the success chance of the action. Then, if you choose to take one in your hand, that card becomes a skill card you can use accordingly to its text.
Don’t just assume what is unwritten. Rules are meant to say what you can do and what they don’t specifically say, you cannot do. Period.
Posté - Edité
No, no, no... when you reveal action cards as part of the result step of an action, you only consider the left column, where the stars / sevens are. The main portion of the action card can only be used when they are in your hand, be it an ongoing effect, an effect you activate by discarding the card or an action you may take (for, say, crafting an item).
The rules clearly say (result step) you can only use cards from your hand, items from your inventory (if activated in items step), quest items or effects from terrain card or permanent events linked to your terrain card. The text on action cards you just drew from the deck cannot be used, because they are not in your hand/inventory.
The only action cards you “activate” their text when revealed during the result step are the four cards from the Flying Roots add-on (those are not skill cards anyway and besides they specifically say what to do when you reveal them, while skill cards don’t say that)
Lastly, when you flip an exploration card, you immediately read what its text says and act accordingly.
altropos a écrit :
Sure the card icon defines its kind as soon as you reveal it, but it doesn’t enter your satchel until you’ve done resolving whatever effect is written on it, so no, you only discard one card.
brisingre a écrit :
Bruno made it quite clear the point in her ability’s wording is that they never meant to let us add back to our hand the same card that got discarded.
Maybe limiting the discard from hand may feel too much of a nerf, but the point stands: you have to choose a different card to pick back up.