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Posté
abredon a écrit :
[quote=JackSpirio]Only your own rules break the card.
Where in the rules does it state that all text must always apply?

Answer:
Point me to a rules reference that says "some text" or "sometimes applies" or anything with a similar meaning.

You can't.




JackSpirio a écrit :
Again, you make up your own rules and tell me that these are the rules.
They are not (see I can write bold too)
The card tells you what to do, this is what the rules tell you. Why do you have such a big problem with that?


Your reply is not to the point:
you have not pointed me to a rules reference that says that card text sometimes applies and sometimes is ignored.

Give me the straight text of the rule that says that.
Note: A rule that states "during the Results step" is text that applies at all times, not just during the results step.
Such text does exclude text that follows from being followed at other times, but does not exclude text before it from being followed during the results step.
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
Was that so hard?


I assume you now agree with the 2 paragraph rules errata text mentioned above and in the original post.
That errata text is required for the rules to match the designer's intent.

Said errata text in rough form:
Card rules text on cards in play areas (except unbuilt item cards and items not currently activated for use), is generally active.
Card rules text on cards revealed from the Action deck are not active unless the card specifically mentions it, and only from the mention to the end of the card.
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
Only your own rules break the card.
Where in the rules does it state that all text must always apply?

Answer:
Point me to a rules reference that says "some text" or "sometimes applies" or anything with a similar meaning.

You can't.

Rules need to be applied consistently-if one piece of text on a card should apply, another piece of text on the same card should also apply - unless there is a rule that states in plain english which one does not apply. ('Effect Area' could do that - but adventure cards don't have an 'effect area', and on skill cards it is the entire right side of the card)

Without such a rule, 2 pieces of rules text on the same card will either both apply or neither will apply.
Anything else is strictly against the rules.

Now some games have specific rules allowing players to select which paragraphs the activate or in what order they activate said paragraphs, but this game does not, and there are many cards that you could exploit if either were the case.
For example: if you were able to choose not to activate the first 2 paragraphs of the flying roots cards or activate the 3rd paragraph first, you could avoid all the negative effects of the flying roots.

So: you must activate all card text in reading order, and Card 180 only shuffles itself back into the deck without giving a star or making the action a success.
Posté
Brisingre:
My rules reference for this response is card 180's text as plainly read, beginning to end.

here is the result under a 'Cards override the rule' interpretation:

since ALL of Card 180's text MUST be applied in order every time it appears:
1. turn the card over and shuffle it back into the deck. (this paragraph does not have any qualifiers so it always happens)
2. hmm... there is no more text visible on Card 180


Nope - doesn't work - the 2nd paragraph cannot be read.

Remember - nothing on the card prevents the first paragraph from being applied in all cases.
If you apply a ruling that you don't follow card text during the results step (based on a very vague implication in the rules), that ruling has to also apply to the 2nd paragraph and the card doesn't work. (card text cannot override rules disabling it, as that very card text is disabled.)

so, in conclusion, [I]the rules are, in fact, broken or incomplete[/i] as there is no way to properly execute Card 180 without breaking the rules.

The fact that we can deduce what card 180 is [I]intended[/i] to do, does not make that effect actually valid under the rules as written.
The fact that the rules when read as written are ambiguous about how they are to be interpreted, and every method of interpretation violates the designer's intent if followed in all circumstances indicates that the rules [I]need an errata[/i].

Rules should not be ambiguous and there should [I]always[/i] be an interpretation that makes sense when followed in all circumstances.
when both of the above happens, there is no way for a player encountering a new type of card to know how to interpret it.
When there is no way to know how to interpret a card, you need an errata for that card, or an errata for the rules to cover the case that card presents.
Posté - Edité
Approaching this from another direction:

Play areas are:
Character play area
Satchel & Journal
Map

Non-Play areas are:
Action Deck
Discard Deck
The boxes with adventure and exploration cards

There is strong evidence that:
card rules text on character, state, skill and bonus cards is active and may be used and card rules text on item cards is only active when the item has been activated for use. This covers every card in a character play area.
card rules text on cards in the Satchel and Journal play area is active.
Card rules text on temporary and permanent events is active - since map cards don't have rules text, this covers every card in the map play area.
card rules text on the back of adventure cards drawn from the box is active (several curses require banners in rules text to be applied, Card 180 requires this)
So: all play areas and cards drawn from the adventure deck have card rules text active (except for non-built or non-activated items, which are already covered by the rules)
Card rules text is to be applied in reading order, and not in the order a player prefers (the Flying Roots 'Strangest Encounter' cards could be discarded without effect if read out of order. there are other examples of bad effect followed by discard/banish this)

There is evidence that:
Some card rules text is not meant to be active when drawn from the Action deck during the Results step of an Action (card 180 would simply shuffle itself back in the deck if all text were active)
Some card rules text (that which specifically mentions being revealed during the Results step) is meant to be active during the Results step of an action (if not intended, then that text could simply have been removed). This active area starts with the qualifier and goes to the end of the card (the flying roots would not work right if the active area were 1 paragraph)

Summary:
Card rules text on cards in play areas (except unbuilt item cards and items not currently activated for use), is generally active.
Card rules text on cards revealed from the Action deck are not active unless the card specifically mentions it, and only from the mention to the end of the card.

If you have any other time or place in which card text is active or inactive, please mention it.
Posté - Edité
I just realized that there is a 3rd possible variant interpretation of the rules. If one assumes that the "effect area" defined in the rulebook indicates where card rules text is to be in effect, even though the rulebook does not actually state this:
For non-item skill cards, the right side of the card is the "effect area", so the ability of "forewarned is forearmed" is always active when revealed, even in the Results step.
Character cards are State cards, so the bottom half of the card with is the "effect area", so character abilities are flavor text (note that this is guaranteed to be against designer intent, as Bruno has clarified that an interpretation of Anjika's ability was not his intent)
Adventure card backs have no "effect area", just flavor text, so Card 180 is just discarded when first drawn from the adventure deck. There are other Adventure cards with the same problem.

That interpretation also has too many problems, as you can see just from the Character card or Adventure card back example.

So:
1. Restrictive without effect area: only action results and action modifiers are the areas where rules text can appear. Game completely broken.
2. Restrictive with effect area: no rules on adventure backs or character abilities, and more. Game broken (there are banner effects on adventure card backs that need to be applied in order to complete certain curses)
3. Permissive: all text that looks like rules always active - most of the game works, but some cards work at times that are not intuitive(forewarned drawn during the results step). The only card that explicitly doesn't work is Card 180, which gets shuffled back into the Action deck before the 2nd paragraph can be used. However, this interpretation opens a pandora's box of non-forbidden things to do.
4. Restrictive with my list of 2 paragraphs of when card rules text should be considered at all: game works in the way most players consider to be the designer's intent.

It is fairly obvious that the designers tried to indicate what areas card rules text could appear but:
1. They missed several important areas (or added rules text to areas not originally meant to have rules text)
2. They didn't address whether there were some times during the game where text on certain cards should not be considered. (Results step, consequence step of think, ...)
3. They then added cards that were supposed to have an effect in one of those times.
4. On one of those cards they put both text that is not supposed to be active and text that is supposed to be active leading to that card not functioning properly without a special interpretation of the rules.

Basically it looks like the rules started out covering where card rules could appear, but then the editing didn't keep up with the game as it was developed. So now there is no real clarity on when text should be applied, only a rough consensus, that works for most cards, but has to be adjusted every time we encounter an odd card like the Flying Roots or Card 180. It is especially bad for Card 180, as so few people have seen the card that there has been too little discussion of how it affects the interpretation of the rules.

And while rough consensus may work most of the time within the same group, we see from the different opinions of how to interpret Card 180 that whenever you play with a different group there can be different consensus opinions.

These differing consensus opinions are what I am trying to resolve by working my way through how multiple cards would work under different rules interpretations, to find one interpretation that clearly states what we believe the designer's intent to be.

AND, based on Bruno's response to the different interpretations of Anjika Patel's ability, the designers would want a clear rules text that everyone would interpret the same way.

THUS my proposal of 2 simple rules that codify our understanding.
If the designers intent is different from our understanding, they can clarify their intent and we can adjust our play based on such clarification.
If the designers intent is the same as our understanding, then the 2 rules make sure everyone understands that intent.

I don't see why you are opposed to this suggestion.
Posté
brisingre a écrit :
abredon a écrit :

Since you have not even tried to do so, it seems you have no logical ground to stand upon, and are merely trolling.


If anybody in this thread is trolling it's you, dude.

The correct interpretation of the rulebook is what you are calling "Restrictive". This is quite clear.



Ok, if the rules are Restrictive then nothing is allowed except what is specifically mentioned in the rules. And the rule about "card text overriding rules" only applies when the card text is to be considered according to other rules (as otherwise you are right back to Permissive as far as card text, and as nothing in the rules specifies most card text to be rules text it is instead flavor text.)

This means:
1. character card skills don't work.
2. No rules text on the green side of action cards work.
3. Botany cards only work if they provide an action (actions are specifically allowed), but the restriction on when you can take the action does not apply.
4. Flying Roots don't work.
And many, many more.

Unless you are willing to provide specific rule references where the things above are mentioned (other than "card text overrides rules"), the above are true in a strict Restrictive reading of the rules)

No such specific rules references? I rest my case. nobody other than me has even tried to provide such references.

I have been willing to provide my logic. You and JackSpirio have merely stated opinions ungrounded in fact. Every time I demonstrate where you go wrong you merely write another opinion also ungrounded in fact.

I started on the BGG page that triggered this thread with the same interpretation as you. However when i actually read the rules, errata, FAQ, and designer clarifications and applied simple logic, I realized my interpretation was based on faulty premises. Then I post here and am attacked by other users who don't do the same research and can't be bothered to write a logical explanation.
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
Just because one person doesn’t understand the way the card is played, doesn’t mean it isn’t clear.
There are tons of players who don’t understand rules, but that isn’t always the rules fault.



we know what the designer's intent is, but that is not what the card does according to the rules.

According to a standard interpretation of the rules, either all the text on cards is supposed to be applicable when drawn during the Results step (Permissive), or none of it is (Restrictive), due to the fact that the rules don't specify when rules text on cards is active.

If we apply Permissive (which seems to be required due to other cards with rules text), we must shuffle this card back into the deck (as there is nothing stating not to do so) and the 2nd paragraph is no longer in effect. NOT what the designers intended. Also, this type of interpretation allows anything else to be done that is not specifically forbidden by the rules (which is why most games are written with Restrictive rules - too many loopholes of "but the rules don't say I can't do that")

If we apply Restrictive (which is the way most games are written), we cannot read any text on the card, even if it refers to the Results step, as there is nothing stating to do so. As a result, the card is discarded with no effect. NOT what the designers intended.
This interpretation also forbids us from interpreting text outside of an action or action modifier (again, there is nothing telling us to do so, and if I recall correctly, the designers have already acknowledged that the card text on the back of Adventure cards is a problem for this very reason)

The only way to NOT process the first paragraph but still process the 2nd is for a rule to state so.
It is vastly preferable to have rules that allow a Restrictive interpretation.

That is what my 2 proposed paragraphs do. They solve several problems that have occurred, including some that have been acknowledged to be a problem. they do it cleanly, and they don't rely on obscure methods of applying rules.

Please do not respond, as you don't seem to be able to construct a logical argument. (which proceeds from a premise - in my case, that the rules are intended to be read in one of the 2 standard ways, and proceeds to a conclusion via logical inferences).
If you disagree with my premise and think that the rules are not meant to be read in one of the 2 standard ways, then the rules have the problem that any player who tries to apply normal rulebook interpretations will inevitably fail, and the rules then need to be fixed.
if you disagree with one of my inferences, you need to either state your own inferences, or point out the specific point where my inference is wrong.
The logic I used is simple, so if it is faulty, it would be simple to quote my text and point out the fault.

Since you have not even tried to do so, it seems you have no logical ground to stand upon, and are merely trolling.
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
The problem in your proposed fix is that it requires defining things like text applicability, game areas and timing, where the game is just as intuitive as it is now without the need of complicating it with technicalities.
The only timing rule is no nested actions: first conclude an action and then resolve temporary events you have revealed during that action.
There is only one rule on text applicability: do what you're told when you're told. Left stripe stars and sevens only apply when you reveal cards in the result step of an action (as per rulebook "easily forgotten rules" section. Skill card text is applied when you play the card from your hand in the cost or result step of an action (as the card tells you). If they depict an action, you can't use them in the middle of another action, as per the timing rule.

You don't need anything else and every card is easily understandable following these few little rules.


And those "few little rules" fail on card 180.

It is not a skill card, so is the text on it active?
It says to turn it over and shuffle it back into the action deck, but if you do that the 2nd paragraph never takes effect.
If you treat it like you would a skill card, the 2nd paragraph never takes effect and it is a 0 star card.


So, there is at least one card where your rules don't apply.
My 2 paragraphs lay out explicitly when text is considered to be active so it fixes:
The acknowledged problem with rules text on the back of adventure cards.
Attempts to activate card text during the results step when not intended.
Failure to activate intended card text during the results step.

This minor clarification allows the game to be played as intended, using a restrictive interpretation of the rules. Unless you can state a situation where these rules would not provide the intended effect, they make it easier for all players to know how the rules are to be interpreted.

And as a plus, it is actually shorter than your "few little rules" and still works on card 180. It is clear in all situations and it doesn't require constantly thinking about "intent" (where opinions often differ).

Your solution would make sense if the designer were active in the forums and resolved the many questions of intent (although the designer weighed in with his intent on Anjika Patel's ability, that is not common). Since that is not the case, we need something more definitive than "read the card and try to figure out what the designer intended"
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
jhaelen a écrit :

But I do wonder, why there's apparently such a strong sentiment against an official clarification of an ambiguous card text. Especially, since it would be so easy to do and everyone would benefit.


Because it really isn't necessary, the card is pretty self-explanatory
1. you take it from the Adventure deck if you spot the 180 number on the terrain card
2. you flip it and add it to the action deck
3. when you draw it from the Action Deck as part of the cost to do an action and reveal it in the Result step, you can add 1 star to the result or you can banish this card and immediately succeed that action.

It's that simple.
I really can't understand why people is so stuck on this card to write loads and loads of mental ruminations about timing, active text and rules so detailed an complex that even a game like Magic The Gathering doesn't have them :ermm:



And yet, there is a player who says they interpret it differently, partly based on playing Call of Cthulhu LCG, where there are similar cards.
Your opinion that it is obvious does not yield an official ruling, and the 2 logical ways of reading game rules both break on this card.

this is why I have proposed a rules fix - because without a rules fix then either:
1. (permissive interpretation of rules - ALL card rules text is active unless SPECIFICALLY forbidden in the rules) Card 180 gets shuffled into the Action deck EVERY time it shows up, and the 2nd paragraph NEVER has an effect. Players can also move their figures without taking an action (as the rules do not forbid it). Obviously breaks the game
2. (restrictive interpretation of rules - NO card rules text is active unless SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the rules) Card 180 never gets shuffled into the Action deck, as card text on Adventure card backs is not specified as being active Many other cards also don't work (some Satchel cards, Character skills, many adventure cards)

PLEASE NOTE: NEITHER of these interpretations has Card 180 providing any star or success. but they are the ONLY ones allowed by a literal and logical reading of the rules.

SINCE
The rules obviously don't work without certain card text being active all the time, certain other card text not being active when revealed during the Results step, and certain other card text being active when revealed during the Results step
AND
The rules don't state anything either way about card text at all
THEN
The rules need a change to clarify when particular types of card text is active.

This is why I propose the following fix. If you agree with the end result of this fix I see no reason to argue that it is not necessary, as there is definitely [I]at least one player[/i] who has disagreed with that interpretation. and when players disagree about the interpretation of a rule, and neither side can provide a rules reference or logical reason why it is that way (or the rules lead to another interpretation entirely), there needs to be a rules fix or official clarification.

Proposed fix for this card and the Flying Roots:
The rules should have the following 2 paragraphs:
All card rules text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck.
During the Result Step of an action, only card rules text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is active.
End of proposed fix

Please note that while I have been providing logical arguments as to why a rules fix is needed, no other response has included a logical refutation - every other response has been opinion ("it isn't needed", "It's obvious", "it states on the card what it does" - which I refuted several times, including in my original post).

The rules are broken and Card 180 provides evidence of it - any rigorous application of the rules to Card 180 leads to it not doing what was intended.
Posté - Edité
And this vagueness is why I have proposed the following correction to the rules - it clarifies what appears to be the intent of the designers in reference to Card 180, the Flying Roots, and the normal action cards that can be discarded in the Results step for extra stars.
It also clarifies a number of other ambiguous situations - to wit:
The rules state that the back of cards have flavor text, but some cards have rules text. NOTE: the designers have noted that this is ambiguous.
The rules do not state that any rules text applies outside of the success/failure areas of an action and the box for action modifiers. They do indicate 'effect area' for certain cards, but there are cards with rules text outside the 'effect area', and card types without an 'effect area'.

The very fact that there are 2 conflicting interpretations is enough to indicate that the rules are vague
The fact that [I]both[/i] conflicting interpretations require violation of standard rules reading, and the 2 interpretations using standard rules reading make no sense, is even [I]more[/i] evidence that clarification is needed.
That the only players who are claiming it is not a problem are using a house rule and claim that that is the only obvious answer, even when another player presents a logical argument to the contrary... that is [I]actual proof[/i] that a clarification is [I]needed[/i].
If you can't reply with a rules reference to a logical argument about an interpretation, [I]the rules need clarification. PERIOD. END OF STORY[/i]. Players should always have some way in the Rules, errata, FAQ, and official designer rulings to KNOW how to interpret a card.
If 2 people have different opinions on how a card works, there [I]needs[/I] to be an official resolution. You can play with a house rule for the immediate purpose of continuing the game, but after the game, you [i]need[/I] to find out what was actually intended. When you go into the official documents and find that the rules actually contradict [I]both[/I] of your interpretations, there is a major problem. This is the case with Card 180 right now - there is no 'card text does not apply during the results step unless....' in the rules, which means the standard interpretations are 'no card text applies during the results step, period' or 'all card text applies during the results step, period' are the only interpretations allowed by the rules - thus needing clarification regardless of any other reason to need clarification.

The rules fix I propose is 2 paragraphs long and resolved many vague points in the rules, resolves the contradictions revealed by Card 180 and Flying Roots, and does not cause any obvious problems. It seems to be the interpretation that expresses the designer's intent best.

The fix I recommend is that the rules should include the following 2 paragraphs:
All card rules text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck.
During the Result Step of an action, only card rules text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is applicable.
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :


By now we should all agree on the fact that during the Result step of an action, when you reveal the cards you have drawn from the Action Deck to take said action, the text on those cards has no effect unless it is preceded by "When you reveal this card in the Result step of an action..." text. So, after you've shuffled it into the Action deck and you've drawn it as part of the Cost step, when you finally reveal it, you ignore everything that's written on that card save for what it says after the "When you reveal this..." part.


Nope, we don't agree. I don't know if the intent if the designers is:
1. Only apply text that says "when revealed..."
2. Only apply text that says "when revealed during the results step..."
3. SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY, since there is NO RULES TEXT THAT SUPPORTS ANY INTERPRETATION AT ALL.

The rules themselves seem to support the unusual interpretation that all rules text on action cards is active during the results step. There is a vague implication this might not be the case, but no rule.

The rules ALSO imply that only the areas listed as "card effect" have an effect. (Support: they list the "card effect" area on a large number of card types.)

They ALSO imply that text outside an action box has no effect. (Support: that is the only place you are told to apply card effects.)

This is unacceptable in situations where there are multiple reasonable interpretations of a card or set of cards.

When a player has a question about how to interpret one of those cards, we CANNOT provide a definitive answer, just an opinion. This is a problem if they ask for the reference in the rules/FAQ/errata/designer ruling on a forum.

This is the situation I AM IN!!!!! A player asked for the evidence of the interpretation. I went to look for said evidence, and found there was a LACK OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY INTERPRETATION.

THAT IS WHY I CREATED THE 2 POSTS.

And THAT IS WHY USER OPINION DOESN'T HELP. There are players who want an official answer.

Rules need to be clear (or clarified by an official representative) so we don't have users interpreting vague rules in contradictory ways.
Posté - Edité
brisingre a écrit :
It is not really that ambiguous what 180 actually does, the only point of confusion that isn't based on a more formal understanding of the rules than the actual rules have is the unfortunate use of "shuffle back into the action deck" instead of "shuffle into the action deck" as the standard template for shuffle effects.

So what are you saying Card 180's effect is when drawn from the Action Deck?
1. Follow the paragraphs in order. Paragraph 2 has no effect as it is no longer visible. This doesn't make sense, although it is the result of applying "normal" card text interpretation and normal english grammar rules.
2. Ignore the first paragraph even though it says "when revealed". The card is not shuffled back into the action deck, but the 2nd paragraph takes effect.
3. Follow the paragraphs in any order, even though that runs counter to plain english reading rules. The second paragraph takes effect, then the card is shuffled back into the action deck.


Note that:
There are 2 interpretations that make sense as far as applying the 2nd paragraph, but:
One of them (#2) requires reinterpreting the "normal" interpretation of card text. The proper way to handle this is to add a clarification to the first paragraph.
The other (#3) requires reading the paragraphs out of order. The proper way to handle this is to swap the paragraphs.

So far, everyone has said "it is obvious", but NOBODY has provided the "obvious" interpretation along with their logical justification of WHY. it is STILL UNCLEAR how to interpret this card, as the 2 most likely intended interpretations require either:
A. Violating the standard method of applying card text.
Or
B. Violating standard English grammar and reading order.
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
Oh man. You’re giving all you got to screw things up!

I am talking about SKILL CARDS.
The flying roots cards specifically say “when you reveal this card”. Of course it works!!!
If you better understand it this way, I’ll say this: the whole card text is active the moment you reveal it, but on skill cards you can’t use the stars/sevens in the left stripe unless you are revealing them in the result step of an action and you can’t use the text in the right side unless you are playing them from your hand or they are items you have in your inventory AND chose to use in the Item step of the action.

There are no official clarifications because there’s really no need. This game has basically one rule and yet you are trying all your best to freely interpret it to make it unclear or not work, where it simply works wonderfully if you just stick to what the rulebook and the cards say without letting your imagination loose. There’s nothing to imagine: it’s all just reading.


Ok, how do you interpret card 180?

Not a skill card (even though the rules DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE SKILL CARDS FROM NON SKILL CARDS WHEN REVEALED IN THE RESULTS STEP),
Has 2 paragraphs.
The first shuffles it back in when revealed
The second gives you a bonus for revealing it, and allows you to banish it for an effect.

The first paragraph voids the second, as by the time you get to it, you have shuffled the card back into the deck.



And on top of that your answer is STILL covered in my original question. PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND FULLY MY QUESTION before submitting poorly thought out feedback!

i am STILL waiting for OFFICIAL clarification.

User feedback that was ALREADY addressed in my original question DOES NOT HELP.
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
Card text when revealed during the result text isn’t active, unless it tells you so, which both of the cards you mention do.


rules reference, please!

The rules don't say that!

And card 180
says to shuffle itself back into the deck when revealed, which voids it's other effect.


i am STILL waiting for OFFICIAL clarification.

User input that was covered in my original question DOES NOT HELP!
Posté - Edité
So, Tootzo, you are saying that the card text on the right of a card is ignored when drawn in the results stage?

Then the Flying roots don't work, and
card 180 is broken
.

This is interpretation 6 in my rules and the most problematic (you are excluding card text based on implications in the rule book, not specific exclusions.

Yet again no interpretation of the rules works!

Please, before answering, read my original post that went through all the possible interpretations, explains how each of them break with various cards, and asks for official clarification for how the rules should be interpreted.

Only provide feedback when you have fully thought through the various ramifications of the various interpretations, and provide a detailed explanation, supported by specific rules text for how the edge cases are to be handled. (Since there is no rules text in the rule book for the edge cases, this is pretty much impossible without clarification from the designers)

So far,every single statement made by users was anticipated by my original question, and nobody has added anything new that changes anything.

I am still waiting for official clarification, as no user comment has helped.

I suspect the answer is 4 (card text is only active in a play area except when it specifically states "when revealed") with a special case for card 180 (which is problematic no matter what), but there is no rule about card text at all, so clarification is needed, as I have listed 6 different interpretations, most of which have been used by different games through the years (and as a general rule, the rules in games specifically state when cards are active).
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
[
Great if and only if that is specifically listed in the rules, but - guess what! It's not!


They don't need to state everything that is not. Rulebook just say what is, automatically excluding the opposite if not stated otherwise.
The LEFT part of an action card is only active when you reveal action cards during the Result step of an action. The RIGHT part is active the moment you take an action card into your hand. Period.
It's clear enough in the rules because, since they don't say otherwise, that's exactly what's stated there.
The stars on the left part of an action card are only explained in the Result step of the action resolution process; the skill text is only talked about when the rulebook says you can take actions printed on skill cards in your hand and can use effects (effects, NOT stars and 7s in the left side) from skill cards in your hand in the Result step of an action and those are precisely the only moments you can use those parts of an action card.

This implicitly means you can't use either of them outside these situations. All rulebooks work this way: you do what they explicitly say and you don't do what's not written.

Example: the rulebook says you can use the resources printed on the terrain card your figure is on and all attached event cards. It doesn't need to also tell you can't use the resource printed on adjacent terrains, but following your logic, you could just do that because the rules don't explicitly say you cannot. Someone might justify this thematically especially when they're on a 0 cost 0 success move terrain saying they don't need to spend a single energy "point" to move across the terrain, so they can get whatever resource is on all reachable terrain cards, because the rulebook doesn't say you can't.
I'm pretty sure you see the absurdity of all this.
You do what they say, you don't do what they don't. Period.


So, according to your interpretation, you cannot use your character skill as it is not "text within an action" and the rulebook doesn't say you can use it.

The conditional text on botany cards is also not inside an action, so it doesn't apply as the rules don't state that it applies.

I'm sorry, but that interpretation is broken.

Again, I went over the different possible interpretations and no rules interpretation works for all situations. I am asking for official clarification, not user opinions
Posté - Edité
JackSpirio a écrit :
No, it does not

"Card text overrides the rules" means that if there is any conflict between card text and rules, the card text applies.

Since all card text overrides all rules (according to the rules), all card text on all cards visible is active at all times, if you state that "card text overrides the rules" is sufficient to resolve this issue then:

Forewarned is forearmed states that you can discard it during the results step to get the following effect: :icon_succes:

Since the text of the card overrides the rules (which don't even state the text is not active), you can discard forewarned is forearmed if drawn during the results step for an extra star immediately.

Card 180 starts with:
when revealed, shuffle this back into the action deck.

Since that is the first text on the card, you immediately shuffle it into the deck, and the second paragraph does not apply.


So that interpretation results in the following cards not functioning as intended:
Forewarned is Forearmed
Valiant Hearts Shall Not Fail
Card 180

There is a problem with that interpreration. It cannot be correct as written.

again, i am asking for official clarification, not user opinions.

I listed possible interpretations and what they fail at, how, and why.
Every user that tried to provide their opinion falls into one of those interpretations, and that interpretation fails for the reason i stated in my first post.
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
Which should be enough

Ok, let's analyze that:
you shuffle it back into the deck the moment it is revealed, and thus the 2nd paragraph is never in play

Bzzt! The card doesn't work right!

This interpretation also means that "forewarned is forearmed" and "valiant hearts shall not fail" can be discarded when they show up in the revealed cards for the extra stars (after all, they override the rules)

That interpretation means that all text on all cards is always active.
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
JackSpirio a écrit :
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.


Yes, the rules lists some effects that can be used in that step. Does that mean such a list is exclusive?

If so, then the Flying Roots don't work.

Why shouldn’t they work?
You don’t use the text, you just do what it tells you (as it is revealed during the success step)


So you also do what "forewarned is forearmed" tells you - that you can discard it to get an extra star?

If the text is not active, you cannot apply what it says - it is merely flavor text or ignored.

And you still have not pointedcto the rule that makes the text apply at all