Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Rules and Operating Points38 messages
Posté - Edité
Right now the rules don't state when card text is active.

There are a number of possible cases:
1 - when a card is revealed for any reason.
Problems with Forewarned is Forearmed, Valiant Hearts Shall Not Fail (allowing you to discard them for extra stars when they are drawn in the results step after counting their inherent stars)
Problem with Card 180 - shuffles into deck before giving star


2 - when a card is in any play area, not when merely revealed.
(with play area defined as hand, inventory, map, and satchel)
Problems with Flying Roots (failure to activate even though the card is supposed to)
Problem with Card 180 - failure to activate


3 - Never unless it specifically listed (e.g. by 'effect area' in card diagrams in rules).
Problems with Character skills (not in effect area), some 050 cards, Flying Roots - failure to activate.

4 - when card is in any play area or specifically mentions 'when revealed'
(with play area defined as hand, inventory, map, and satchel)
Problem with Card 180 - shuffles into deck before giving star


5 - when card is revealed unless the rulebook specifically excludes it.
The rulebook does not specifically exclude anything, so this has the same problem as 1

6 - when card is revealed unless the rulebook implies not.
This is very problematical, how can you reliably determine implication.

I think the answer should be 4 (when in a play area or the card states 'when revealed'), as that seems to cause the fewest problems.
Card
180
is the only card with problems in this case but that card has problems in all cases.

EDIT:
So after all this and reading the full text of card 180 and the Flying Roots cards, it seems the only interpretation that seems that it might accomplish what the designers intended is:
All card text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck. (without this many cards break completely)
During the Result Step of an action, only card text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is active.


And to arrive at that interpretation took thorough going over the various permutations of interpretation and how they interacted with the actual wording of:
Card 180 (demonstrates that card text is not automatically active, as it would prevent itself from working if this was the case)
The Flying Roots (won't work without the 'continuing to the end of the card' as the text is split into separate paragraphs with only the first having the 'when revealed during...')
"Forewarned is Forearmed" and "Valiant Hearts Shall Not Fail" (affected by some of the interpretations, but not game-breaking either way)


And we still aren't 100% sure that is what is intended. It's just the only interpretation that does not cause perceived problems with one or more of the above cards.

And before Card 180 and Flying Roots almost everyone "knew" that card text did not apply during the Results step of an action. (Partially because only 2 cards had text that made any sense then and prior games made us think that you generally only discard from your hand)

The rules should have the following 2 paragraphs:
All card rules text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck.
During the Result Step of an action, only card rules text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is active.
Posté - Edité
The rules state pretty clearly when you can use cards , starting on page 11 of the rule book for action resolution , only the left side of the card is used when you draw cards for a result , you can use cards from your hand , inventory or journal during the cost step and/or the results step . card text is only active when it is in your hand/inventory or journal.
Posté
MetalGod a écrit :
The rules state pretty clearly when you can use cards , starting on page 11 of the rule book for action resolution , only the left side of the card is used when you draw cards for a result , you can use cards from your hand , inventory or journal during the cost step and/or the results step . card text is only active when it is in your hand/inventory or journal.

Where does the word "only" appear in the results step except in stating that the stars and 7 icons in the left strip are only taken into account in the result step?
The rules do not state that the rest of the card is not processed, just that that strip is not processed anywhere else.

If card text is only processed when in hand/inventory or journal, the Flying Roots cards don't work.

Again, the rules never provide that card text outside of an action is ever processed.
It is obvious that it needs to be processed only in some cases and not others.
Non-complete breakdown:
Needs to be processed or the game breaks:
1. Character skills text needs to be processed
2. Journal cards often have text that is processed
3. Text on some specific cards that do something when revealed in the results step of an action

Shouldn't be processed:
4. Text on some cards during the results step of an action.
5. Text on cards not currently in play.

Since there is no rule delineating the difference between 3 and 4 above, there is no way to tell what cards fall into 3 and what cards fall into 4
card 180 appears to be designed to fall into both, but the text on the card seems to indicate it falls into 4 entirely. It just doesn't work that way
.
Posté - Edité
No, no, no... when you reveal action cards as part of the result step of an action, you only consider the left column, where the stars / sevens are. The main portion of the action card can only be used when they are in your hand, be it an ongoing effect, an effect you activate by discarding the card or an action you may take (for, say, crafting an item).

The rules clearly say (result step) you can only use cards from your hand, items from your inventory (if activated in items step), quest items or effects from terrain card or permanent events linked to your terrain card. The text on action cards you just drew from the deck cannot be used, because they are not in your hand/inventory.

The only action cards you “activate” their text when revealed during the result step are the four cards from the Flying Roots add-on (those are not skill cards anyway and besides they specifically say what to do when you reveal them, while skill cards don’t say that)

Lastly, when you flip an exploration card, you immediately read what its text says and act accordingly.
Posté
Tootzo a écrit :
No, no, no... when you reveal action cards as part of the result step of an action, you only consider the left column, where the stars / sevens are. The main portion of the action card can only be used when they are in your hand, be it an ongoing effect, an effect you activate by discarding the card or an action you may take (for, say, crafting an item).

The rules clearly say (result step) you can only use cards from your hand, items from your inventory (if activated in items step), quest items or effects from terrain card or permanent events linked to your terrain card. The text on action cards you just drew from the deck cannot be used, because they are not in your hand/inventory.

The only action cards you “activate” their text when revealed during the result step are the four cards from the Flying Roots add-on (those are not skill cards anyway and besides they specifically say what to do when you reveal them, while skill cards don’t say that)

Lastly, when you flip an exploration card, you immediately read what its text says and act accordingly.


Great if and only if that is specifically listed in the rules, but - guess what! It's not!

In fact if you read the rules, you realize that they don't actually list any time at which card text is active or not (except for the consequence area of an action, and the box area of a brown modifier)

This means one of the following:
1. no card text is active outside the action consequences and modifier boxes (no character skills, no Forewarned is Forearmed,flying roots,...) - many problems.
2. all card text is always active unless specifically excluded (you can discard Forewarned is Forearmed when you just drew if for an extra star, and a very few other issues). Problems with around 4-10 cards only.
3. The rules need an errata covering the special cases where card text should not be active.
Posté
It you just do what the cards say, which makes it obvious when they are to be used.
:flag_curse_sm: VG: :icon_succes: PoC: :icon_succes: IM: :icon_succes:
CS :card_pick:009: :icon_succes:, :card_pick:123: :icon_succes::icon_succes:
Posté - Edité
JackSpirio a écrit :
It you just do what the cards say, which makes it obvious when they are to be used.


There are cards that logic doesn't work with:
So you can discard "Forewarned is Forearmed" when it is drawn during the Result step of an action to get an extra star? It doesn't say "from hand" so you can discard it when it is drawn as a result card.

And the card that prompted me finding out how vague the rules are on this:
card 180
gets shuffled back into the deck and has no other effect?
Rather than the other 2 possibilities:
Adds a star and gets shuffled back into the deck.
Adds a star and does not get shuffled back into the deck.


There are cards in this game where your simplistic approach does not work, and when we go look for supporting actual rules or even designer's stated intention, we can find nothing to support any interpretation, and the vagueness causes me to
now question my former interpretation of every card.

With equal support from the rules, I could claim that you could:
Use a botany card even when the plant is not present (the qualifier text is not within the modifier box, so doesn't apply) - if you can only use card rules text when explicitly told to.
Discard a just-drawn Valiant Hearts card for 2 extra successes in the action it was drawn (the text says you may discard it for those successes) - if all card rules text is always applicable.

Since the rules say nothing about when card text is applicable, one of the above should be true, but there is no way to tell, and simple logic says neither should be true(forewarned/valiant hearts/roots/180), so we need a clarification on the edge cases.

Logic says the result card text should not be applied, but then flying roots have text that needs to be applied when drawn as results. Card
180
has text that doesn't make sense interpreted either way.

And most importantly, if someone questions why your interpretation is correct, where in the official rules/clarifications can you point?

Specific examples of actual rules/clarifications only, please. No hearsay
Posté
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.
:flag_curse_sm: VG: :icon_succes: PoC: :icon_succes: IM: :icon_succes:
CS :card_pick:009: :icon_succes:, :card_pick:123: :icon_succes::icon_succes:
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.


Yes, the rules lists some effects that can be used in that step. Does that mean such a list is exclusive?

If so, then the Flying Roots don't work.


Unless you can point to a specific place in the rules that covers when card text is active, all you are doing is arguing "this is what it should be", not debating the rules.

I am stating that the rules do not state when card text is active, and none of the sensible interpretations work for all cards.

I am asking for either:
A clear rules citation of where such a rule on card text is listed in plain language in the rules, errata, or FAQ
Or
A new ruling in the errata or FAQ from the designers of when card text is active.

what you are giving me is:
User X (not designer) says it is obviously this way.

what I currently have is:
User X says it is obviously H (but cards A and B don't work with that interpretation)
User Y says it is obviously I (but cards B and C don't work with that interpretation)
The best I can come up with is J (but card B needs editing to work with that interpretation)
Posté
abredon a écrit :
JackSpirio a écrit :
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.


Yes, the rules lists some effects that can be used in that step. Does that mean such a list is exclusive?

If so, then the Flying Roots don't work.

Why shouldn’t they work?
You don’t use the text, you just do what it tells you (as it is revealed during the success step)
:flag_curse_sm: VG: :icon_succes: PoC: :icon_succes: IM: :icon_succes:
CS :card_pick:009: :icon_succes:, :card_pick:123: :icon_succes::icon_succes:
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
JackSpirio a écrit :
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.


Yes, the rules lists some effects that can be used in that step. Does that mean such a list is exclusive?

If so, then the Flying Roots don't work.

Why shouldn’t they work?
You don’t use the text, you just do what it tells you (as it is revealed during the success step)


So you also do what "forewarned is forearmed" tells you - that you can discard it to get an extra star?

If the text is not active, you cannot apply what it says - it is merely flavor text or ignored.

And you still have not pointedcto the rule that makes the text apply at all
Posté
The card tells you to do what it says on that case.
If it doesn’t specify that timing it is not active.
So I can’t discard a just drawn forewarned is forearmed, but the text on the flying roots card works.

Come on, you are just arguing to argue.
:flag_curse_sm: VG: :icon_succes: PoC: :icon_succes: IM: :icon_succes:
CS :card_pick:009: :icon_succes:, :card_pick:123: :icon_succes::icon_succes:
Posté
abredon a écrit :
[
Great if and only if that is specifically listed in the rules, but - guess what! It's not!


They don't need to state everything that is not. Rulebook just say what is, automatically excluding the opposite if not stated otherwise.
The LEFT part of an action card is only active when you reveal action cards during the Result step of an action. The RIGHT part is active the moment you take an action card into your hand. Period.
It's clear enough in the rules because, since they don't say otherwise, that's exactly what's stated there.
The stars on the left part of an action card are only explained in the Result step of the action resolution process; the skill text is only talked about when the rulebook says you can take actions printed on skill cards in your hand and can use effects (effects, NOT stars and 7s in the left side) from skill cards in your hand in the Result step of an action and those are precisely the only moments you can use those parts of an action card.

This implicitly means you can't use either of them outside these situations. All rulebooks work this way: you do what they explicitly say and you don't do what's not written.

Example: the rulebook says you can use the resources printed on the terrain card your figure is on and all attached event cards. It doesn't need to also tell you can't use the resource printed on adjacent terrains, but following your logic, you could just do that because the rules don't explicitly say you cannot. Someone might justify this thematically especially when they're on a 0 cost 0 success move terrain saying they don't need to spend a single energy "point" to move across the terrain, so they can get whatever resource is on all reachable terrain cards, because the rulebook doesn't say you can't.
I'm pretty sure you see the absurdity of all this.
You do what they say, you don't do what they don't. Period.
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
[
Great if and only if that is specifically listed in the rules, but - guess what! It's not!


They don't need to state everything that is not. Rulebook just say what is, automatically excluding the opposite if not stated otherwise.
The LEFT part of an action card is only active when you reveal action cards during the Result step of an action. The RIGHT part is active the moment you take an action card into your hand. Period.
It's clear enough in the rules because, since they don't say otherwise, that's exactly what's stated there.
The stars on the left part of an action card are only explained in the Result step of the action resolution process; the skill text is only talked about when the rulebook says you can take actions printed on skill cards in your hand and can use effects (effects, NOT stars and 7s in the left side) from skill cards in your hand in the Result step of an action and those are precisely the only moments you can use those parts of an action card.

This implicitly means you can't use either of them outside these situations. All rulebooks work this way: you do what they explicitly say and you don't do what's not written.

Example: the rulebook says you can use the resources printed on the terrain card your figure is on and all attached event cards. It doesn't need to also tell you can't use the resource printed on adjacent terrains, but following your logic, you could just do that because the rules don't explicitly say you cannot. Someone might justify this thematically especially when they're on a 0 cost 0 success move terrain saying they don't need to spend a single energy "point" to move across the terrain, so they can get whatever resource is on all reachable terrain cards, because the rulebook doesn't say you can't.
I'm pretty sure you see the absurdity of all this.
You do what they say, you don't do what they don't. Period.


So, according to your interpretation, you cannot use your character skill as it is not "text within an action" and the rulebook doesn't say you can use it.

The conditional text on botany cards is also not inside an action, so it doesn't apply as the rules don't state that it applies.

I'm sorry, but that interpretation is broken.

Again, I went over the different possible interpretations and no rules interpretation works for all situations. I am asking for official clarification, not user opinions
Posté
I am puzzled. I really can’t understand if your playing dumb just to troll or you really don’t get it.

I meant “rulebook” in a broader way. If a card text say you can do something, you can do that thing.
My point was: rules in a game are meant to be taken literally. What is specifically written on a rulebook, a card, a game element, you can do. If something is not written anywhere, you don’t just infer you may still do that on a logical basis. You can’t do what the rules on the entirety of the game components don’t specifically say you can.

And by the way: page 12 of the rulebook
1. In the Result step of an action, the rules say: “Each player involved in the action may apply the effects of one or more cards from their hands (A), of one or more item cards in their inventory used in step 1 (B), of one or more permanent event cards attached to the terrain card their figure is standing on (C) and/or of one or more quest item cards (D), in order to obtain additional successes.”

Since using the skill card effect (right part) of cards drawn to resolve the action is neither A, B, C nor D, I really can’t see why you’re still arguing those skill cards’ text is “active” when they are revealed as part of the action resolution sequence. It is not. It becomes “usable” only when they are in your hand/inventory.

2. On the right column, the second “Important!” box from the top says: “Any STAR or LUCKY 7 icons in the left strip of Skill cards are only taken into account when these cards are revealed during this step, not when they are in a player’s hand or inventory.
So, again, no: you can’t play cards from your hand during the Result step of an action to add the stars and 7s in their left strip.

I hope this will put an end to this overly long debate.
Posté - Edité
So, Tootzo, you are saying that the card text on the right of a card is ignored when drawn in the results stage?

Then the Flying roots don't work, and
card 180 is broken
.

This is interpretation 6 in my rules and the most problematic (you are excluding card text based on implications in the rule book, not specific exclusions.

Yet again no interpretation of the rules works!

Please, before answering, read my original post that went through all the possible interpretations, explains how each of them break with various cards, and asks for official clarification for how the rules should be interpreted.

Only provide feedback when you have fully thought through the various ramifications of the various interpretations, and provide a detailed explanation, supported by specific rules text for how the edge cases are to be handled. (Since there is no rules text in the rule book for the edge cases, this is pretty much impossible without clarification from the designers)

So far,every single statement made by users was anticipated by my original question, and nobody has added anything new that changes anything.

I am still waiting for official clarification, as no user comment has helped.

I suspect the answer is 4 (card text is only active in a play area except when it specifically states "when revealed") with a special case for card 180 (which is problematic no matter what), but there is no rule about card text at all, so clarification is needed, as I have listed 6 different interpretations, most of which have been used by different games through the years (and as a general rule, the rules in games specifically state when cards are active).
Posté
Oh man. You’re giving all you got to screw things up!

I am talking about SKILL CARDS.
The flying roots cards specifically say “when you reveal this card”. Of course it works!!!
If you better understand it this way, I’ll say this: the whole card text is active the moment you reveal it, but on skill cards you can’t use the stars/sevens in the left stripe unless you are revealing them in the result step of an action and you can’t use the text in the right side unless you are playing them from your hand or they are items you have in your inventory AND chose to use in the Item step of the action.

There are no official clarifications because there’s really no need. This game has basically one rule and yet you are trying all your best to freely interpret it to make it unclear or not work, where it simply works wonderfully if you just stick to what the rulebook and the cards say without letting your imagination loose. There’s nothing to imagine: it’s all just reading.
Posté
Card text when revealed during the result text isn’t active, unless it tells you so, which both of the cards you mention do.
:flag_curse_sm: VG: :icon_succes: PoC: :icon_succes: IM: :icon_succes:
CS :card_pick:009: :icon_succes:, :card_pick:123: :icon_succes::icon_succes:
Posté
JackSpirio a écrit :
Card text when revealed during the result text isn’t active, unless it tells you so, which both of the cards you mention do.


rules reference, please!

The rules don't say that!

And card 180
says to shuffle itself back into the deck when revealed, which voids it's other effect.


i am STILL waiting for OFFICIAL clarification.

User input that was covered in my original question DOES NOT HELP!
Posté - Edité
Tootzo a écrit :
Oh man. You’re giving all you got to screw things up!

I am talking about SKILL CARDS.
The flying roots cards specifically say “when you reveal this card”. Of course it works!!!
If you better understand it this way, I’ll say this: the whole card text is active the moment you reveal it, but on skill cards you can’t use the stars/sevens in the left stripe unless you are revealing them in the result step of an action and you can’t use the text in the right side unless you are playing them from your hand or they are items you have in your inventory AND chose to use in the Item step of the action.

There are no official clarifications because there’s really no need. This game has basically one rule and yet you are trying all your best to freely interpret it to make it unclear or not work, where it simply works wonderfully if you just stick to what the rulebook and the cards say without letting your imagination loose. There’s nothing to imagine: it’s all just reading.


Ok, how do you interpret card 180?

Not a skill card (even though the rules DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE SKILL CARDS FROM NON SKILL CARDS WHEN REVEALED IN THE RESULTS STEP),
Has 2 paragraphs.
The first shuffles it back in when revealed
The second gives you a bonus for revealing it, and allows you to banish it for an effect.

The first paragraph voids the second, as by the time you get to it, you have shuffled the card back into the deck.



And on top of that your answer is STILL covered in my original question. PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND FULLY MY QUESTION before submitting poorly thought out feedback!

i am STILL waiting for OFFICIAL clarification.

User feedback that was ALREADY addressed in my original question DOES NOT HELP.
Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Rules and Operating Points38 messages