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Card #180

"Shuffle this card back into action deck"

Problem 1, "back into" makes it sounds like it's applied whenever it comes out of action deck.

Problem 2, lack of timing. (not sure when to apply the first sentence)

From experience, when you're low on action-deck cards (life force), the current translation of "back into action deck" makes it game breaking because it will always stay in action deck if you only draw 1 card to move around and never use it as a success.

Suggest that it's corrected into something like the following... (since this is a special card)
- When you reveal from adventure deck , shuffle it into action deck.
- When you reveal from action deck, use it as a star then add to action-discard pile (not the past); or use it as a success then banish it.

I agree this card is worded in a confusing way, but I don't think it actually needs errata, strictly speaking.

You apply the first sentence when you first read the card. It's like any other rules text on the numbered side of a green card -- you do it as soon as you take the card. This doesn't need to specify a timing to work, because it uses the default timing. I agree it might be clearer if it did specify a timing, but it doesn't actually need one.

"back into the Action Deck" is a confusing choice of words, because it sort of implies that the card was coming from the Action Deck at the time this ability applies, but I don't think that's nearly enough to specify a timing. If I were to change the wording of this card, the most important change would be to remove "back" from this sentence.

"When this gets revealed..." is a separate ability that specifies its timing. If you were meant to shuffle the 180 card back into the action deck when it is revealed from the action deck, you would shuffle it back into the deck as part of this ability. But it is not -- in fact, it is very specifically split off into a separate ability.

So, I'm pretty sure you're playing it wrong, if you're shuffling it back into the action deck every time you reveal it. I'm pretty sure you only do the first ability when you take the card from the deck, just based on how the timings work -- to say nothing of the balance implications. Which, you're right, totally gamebreaking under that interpretation.

It seems to me that the answer given in this thread is correct, and that's how I've played it. But there's been a discussion on BGG about this card and I was just wondering if the designers have ever confirmed that the "Shuffle this card back into action deck" only applies on the first draw?

Well, the card isn't as ambiguous as it may seem at the first glance.

As Brisingre already mentioned, the effect of the card is dependant from the situation it shows up.

When drawing the card from the adventure deck, the text on the numbered side of the card takes effect in the whole.

As the card is no skill card, you never use it for a possible ability but only for its successes (stars and/or sevens) when revealed from the action deck.

The "When this gets revealed..." effect is actually not an effect you gain when revealing the card, but it's already gained the moment you shuffle it into the action deck and is only triggered by revealing it.

I agree 100% with Unisus on how the card works but I disagree on a small technical point as to why it works this way.

I don't think "when this gets revealed" is a permanent game-overlaying trigger that exists outside of the card like that. 7C doesn't really do those, any ability that exists for more than a split second is represented by a face-up card in the game somewhere.


It's simpler than that.

Card text ordinarily works when you take a card from the Adventure deck by number, but does not ordinarily work when you reveal a card from the action deck during an action. Because the first ability does not define its timing, it behaves in this "ordinary" way, and triggers only once, when you first take 180 by number.

Abilities that define their timing work when they say they work, even if the rules otherwise say they wouldn't. The rulebook boils this down to "text on cards takes priority over the rulebook" but one major practical implication of that is that the timing restrictions, the parts of a card that say when the rest of the card works, are always "live". Because the second ability defines its timing, you don't have to worry about what the rules have to say beyond that, really -- the rules for this ability are on the card, not in the rulebook.

I would add to the already closed discussion by pointing out that the rulebook does in fact instruct you to read the text on the numbered side of Adventure cards the moment you take them from the Adventure deck, so this reinforces the idea that you don't trigger the "shuffle into the Action Deck" part whenever you draw the card from the Action Deck, but only when you first take it from the Adventure deck.

I think it does.
To the contrary, it absolutely must state a restriction, otherwise the text will definitely always apply. It would be clear if it stated "When this card is drawn from the adventure deck..."

In my opinion, it's a separate paragraph, because it is meant to be shuffled back into the action deck, regardless of the reason it's been revealed from the action deck while the second paragraph only applies if it's revealed as part of the Result step of an action.
So, you are 'pretty sure'. Pretty sure isn't good enough, imho. Because I'm pretty sure that you're wrong and my interpretation is fully supported by the game rules.
I also disagree that it is gamebreaking. Is it a good effect? Very much so. But game-breaking it's not. There's plenty of ways that can cause it to be discarded. You might just as well argue that hunting is game-breaking because it allows you to shuffle cards back into the action deck.

This is incorrect under the rules.

The rulebook quite clearly states that you resolve the text of cards when you draw them from the adventure deck. It doesn't need a timing to apply then, because the rules say it applies. The rules do not say to resolve text of cards when you draw them from the action deck -- it is quite clear, on page 12, that the normal thing to do with those cards is just to count their stars. Normally, no text on the cards you draw applies during this phase, and if you play that it does, it causes some other weirdness, like being able to discard Forewarned is Forearmed for an extra star immediately after it is drawn for another on the check you drew it.

The few abilities that do trigger during that phase, including the Flying Roots card and the second (but not the first) ability of 180, trigger because they specifically say they do.

I would support errataing this card as you describe, because every couple weeks some poor kid posts about how confusing 180 is, but it is wrong to be resolving the text on cards when you draw them from the action deck.



"Pretty sure" is the extent of my authority. I didn't design 7C, I don't and cannot know for sure what they were thinking. I can't make official rulings. But I've played hundreds of hours, I know the rules well, including recently studying them in detail specifically to look for evidence for another discussion of this question. Within those limits, there is not a doubt in my mind. I do not believe this card is ambiguous. I am as certain as I can be without an official ruling that it works as I describe. I doubt that's "good enough" either, but it would blow my mind if Bruno showed up and said I'm wrong about this.

Gamebreaking is relative, and certainly on it's own shouldn't be taken to mean it couldn't work that way. Loads of gamebreaking stuff absolutely does work under the rules, like Dark Side combo. I merely mean that, faced with a choice between two interpretations for what a minor magic item is supposed to do, one of which provides a small but solid bonus, the other of which completely outclasses every other source of healing in the game, including major relics, and renders the core hunting system almost obsolete, I think the first one is more likely the one they intended. That's all.

I'm definitely not trying to tell anybody how to play their game. You can do whatever makes sense to you, or whatever makes the game more fun to you, or just whatever you want. 7C's great about that, it's almost always fine to just play it your way. But I'm confident in my interpretation of the rules.

From this thread:
https://the7thcontinent.seriouspoulp.com/en/forum/topic/4484/card-180-a0599/page/3/300526/#300526